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America is a place which in which the basic, most fundamental
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issues of our times have had to be dealt with.
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And the most fundamental issue of our times is, is the question
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I came here in Miami in 1987 I was a guest guest professor at
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the University of the Florida International University
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I was supposed to open up a course which didn't exist.
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So the first time this course was going to be treated, going
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to be given a course on sociology, Cuban, sociology and history
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In other words, Cuban society, what was Cuban society?
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And as I started giving this course, I knew, I, of course, I
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knew I was coming to Miami.
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I knew what Miami was.
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I knew that I did not agree with the political ideology of the
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Cubans who were here, the majority of whom were white.
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I knew what white Cubans had in their minds in Cuba, how they
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viewed Black people in Cuba.
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Because I grew up under that racism there in Cuba.
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In fact, it was that racism that made me support the revolution
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I primarily became interested in the revolution, became
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interested in socialism.
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And became interested in communism as an ideology because
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of the racial oppression in Cuba.
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That's what gave me a hunger for a type of society in which this
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So when I identified communism, socialism, revolution,
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with the disappearance of racism, I was wholeheartedly on
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be embraced the revolution.
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So the people who left Cuba who left Cuba in those first four
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years run out of Cuba.
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One of the reasons why they left Cuba.
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It was because they said that the new government was empowering
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That was one of the reasons they gave.
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They said this revolution is red is communist and it's black
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this was the slogan, slogan at the time.
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I remember that Castro even had to come out and make speeches
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saying no, I'm not trying to empower the blacks because they
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They were saying you want black men to dance with our daughters
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And Castro made AAA very important speech in which he says
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it's called dancing with the revolution.
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It was on the I think the speech was made on, it was in March.
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Um when he said all of the public places, we will, we will no
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longer allow discrimination in public places.
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So they said, oh, so you want black men to come and you know and
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dance with our daughters and be fresh with our daughters.
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So it was, it was, it was a big thing.
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So Castro had to go on TV.
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He made a long speech and he said, I am not saying that black
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men should dance with white women in white clubs.
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He said all I'm saying is that all Cubans will have to dance
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with this revolution.
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So that was that speech.
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So I remember very well that those were the issues at the time
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People were saying, oh no, no, no.
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This revolution is, is red and is black is communist and is
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empower, it is going to empower the black which happened to
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But the empowerment of the black came because 20% of the white
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So the blacks became a majority in Cuba in the first four years
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of Castro's government.
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So I knew that the people who were in Miami, I knew very well
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what type of mindset they had.
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But I wasn't ready for what I was going to face when I came in
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Not only was I facing the racism of Cubans in Cuba of the past
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but I was facing a Cuban white Cuban population which had
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reinvented completely.
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The whole past of Cuba had lied to themselves to such an extent
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that they had obliterated totally the fact that even blacks
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Now here was a Cuba which had already become black, a majority
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black because they had left 20 to 25% of the whites fled Cuba
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in the 1st 4 to 5 years of the Castro regime.
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So Cuba having been 35 to 45% black before Castro immediately
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there was a black majority.
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So here was a population which not only had completely turned
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things around the versions I was hearing here about Cuba pre
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Castro, Cuba were just fantastic.
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I said, but these people have gone crazy.
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I mean, I was struck.
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I said these people have really got lost their minds and it
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was true that it was such a schizophrenia.
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And here all of a sudden, I was seen as someone who came from
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the moon because they would even question the fact that I was
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They would say, but you are black when I came here.
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I mean, it was really incredible here in Miami.
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They would say, well, you are black.
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We don't have blacks in Cuba and we don't have blacks in Cuba
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So they were seeing me actually as someone who was from some
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And when I started teaching in my classes to the students saying
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hey, listen, Cuba is a majority black country that was scandalous
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And when I was talk, I began talking about the racism, the pre
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revolutionary races.
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I spoke about the black genocide in Cuba in 1912.
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I mean, the students were horrified, these were majority
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They were, they grew, grew up in this country.
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So they went back and told their parents that I this professor
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this black professor who claimed to be Cuban was saying these
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So they had it on Radio Mambi and Cuba.
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So they started at the attacks.
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So it was an it was infernal it in my life all of a sudden was became
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an in hellish in this place with threats to my life.
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Uh All of that started happening.
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So what I had realized, I realized that what had happened is
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that these Cuban immigrants did not consider themselves
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Uh These Cuban immigrants didn't had not really emigrated
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They had simply dislocated themselves and taken a Cuba which
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they had totally remade to their own image and implanted it
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In other words, they were even negating the fact that they
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were in a, in a in another country in another setting.
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So I felt this was schizophrenic.
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I said somebody has to study this community because this community
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There is something profoundly sick about this community
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Um It was not only a community which was um which was profoundly
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racist and this is why the crisis with Black Americans emerged
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very quickly because when the White Cubans came here in the
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early 19 sixties, I mean, right in this, in, in Florida, South
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Florida, the civil rights movement had begun.
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So they had just begun when Florida was one of the last places
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where the civil rights movement in the United States took
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So they came at a time of transformation here in South Florida
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When the black pop, the native black population was challenging
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the status quo, the racial status quo and the whole status
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quo of racial entitlements of the wasp population here.
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So here come in comes in brutally suddenly this mass population
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of whites who considered himself as whites.
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They did not consider themselves as mestizos or as mixed.
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No, they consider themselves as aryans.
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They viewed themselves as aliens and they denied that Cuba
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So of course, they collided immediately with the black population
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It was it it was disaster.
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So when I came, I saw this, I realized this.
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So one of the first things that I proposed to the university
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I said, hey listen, this university has to promote a conference
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You see he has to organize a conference, an international
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conference on Neg Tode so that this population here so that
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the black population can identify with, with the trends of
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the Black movement all over the world, the intellectual,
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political um trends of neg and the white population, Cuban
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I'm sure there are a lot of them who would be interested, who
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I would because I already saw some, a number of people here
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There are a number of white Cubans already but they were afraid
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to, to, to be vocal, others were more vocal, but there was a
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a minority but a significant minority of people who were
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sane who are saying this is insane.
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People like Lucrecia Grand and a number of people who are already
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here who I found at the university who told me, listen to them
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you know, we would discuss and I would explain to them what
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my views were and they, they said, well, yes, this is the, that
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that is the Cuba that existed.
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That is the Cuba that existed.
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So that's the type of situation I found here.
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I found a, a really impossible situation here in 1987.
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When I lived here, I lived here 87 and 88.
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It was horrible, it was horrible.
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What, what the White Cuban population had done here.
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They had done violence to history, violence to the truth and
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were doing violence to the their own environment because
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they were creating a situation of hostility, multi ethnic
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Because not only were they hostile towards the, the uh the
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African Americans, they were hostile towards the Haitian
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Americans, they were hostile towards the Puerto Ricans.
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They were hostile practically towards all other ethnic groups
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And they had this vision that they were an entitled white minority
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And of course, the Cuban, the American government encouraged
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that because of the whole racial, because of the whole ideological
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climate of the Cold War, they encourage it.
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They, they gave them this sense of entitlement of white entitlement
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So therefore, this was a disaster for this country.
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It was a disaster in terms of race relations because it prepared
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the basis for a total distrust by the African American population
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of anything which could be called Latin American.
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They started distrusting everybody who came from Latin America
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because their image was these, was these white Cubans.
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You've been back numerous times since then.
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Do you sense a change in?
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Oh yes, tremendous change.
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Uh In the first place, there has been a generational change
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Um The younger generation, the younger generation of, of
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of Cubans who grew up in this country, who were socialized
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in this country because no matter what we say about America
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America is a place which in which the basic, most fundamental
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issues of our times have had to be dealt with and the most fundamental
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issue of our times is, is the question of race.
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It's not just class.
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I mean, Marx has always said that the basic problem in society
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was class, but race is an intractable issue because race is
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not something which has to do with economy, it doesn't have
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to do with political structures.
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It's not simply something of interpersonal relationships
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Race has to do with a diffused, overarching consciousness
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which has been created historically and which is distilled
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through the political system, through the economic economic
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system and which permeates the, the system of interpersonal
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So it's in all these three domains, the interpersonal, the
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purely systemic, the institutional and the symbolic world
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In other words, the i the world in which people imagine others
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So in this country, this country had to confront that and confront
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it very early because of, of the fact that the black population
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in this country brought forth the whole question of the issues
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I mean, Web Du Bois already was talking about race in the early
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So he confronted American society, society with the question
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So for the first time, young Cubans who were socialized in
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this country were socialized within this, this new, this
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So this other generation which started growing up in this
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country, you know, meeting black people on an unequal level
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which wasn't the case with their parents, their parents
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never met with blacks except as servants, they didn't have
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them um people in the universities, you know, who were their
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fellow students, you know, they didn't date black people
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in, in Cuba, they didn't have, they didn't have their parents
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didn't do these things.
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But these young Cuban Americans started going to school with
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with, with black people, with other black people.
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And the culture of this country is pretty much very much black
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the music of this country.
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So this new generation was being socialized with two black
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music, the music that we're hearing from Cuba Celia Cruz,
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they love, that's black music.
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That's Afro Cuban music and then this whole rhythm and blues
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and everything which led to hip hop and rap.
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And all of that, this these generations of our Cuban Americans
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were socialized in these symbolic areas which were black
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and in the interpersonal area, which meant frequent interaction
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with black people on a on an equal basis.
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Going to school dating, going out these young girls, Afro
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Cuban American, they would date, you know, black fellows
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and they, their parents would never know the boys would do
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So they were doing like any other American.
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So they were being socialized in another whole system of values
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And that created a totally different view.
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It broke, it broke the paradigm that their parents live by
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And of course, that's evident today.
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I mean, it's evident today in how they vote, how they act, how
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they conduct themselves.
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Of course, Miami Today is, I mean, there's no, there is no comparison
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no comparison whatsoever.
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Immigration continues to be a very debated issue in this country
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It's an issue that has divided the country along party lines
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And when the issue of immigration comes up today, uh it's in
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the context of Mexican immigration, Latin immigration seldomly
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Do you hear about the European immigrations normally thought
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of in the Hispanic context?
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How much do you think the issue of race plays into the heat associated
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You see race is a race happens to be such a profound issue for
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It is so such a profound and intractable issue that people
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don't want to talk about.
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People, race is a non issue has become a non issue.
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Precisely because it's so big.
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It's so overarching, so overwhelming that people don't know
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how to deal with it.
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They can't deal with it because people on the one hand have
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have learned one thing that it is not nice to declare yourself
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And anywhere you go in the world, people deny that they are
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They practice racism.
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They live according to the racist structures and structures
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because race is not simply a matter of, as I said, of interpersonal
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relations, it's something which is systemic, I mean, racism
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So that means that people are racist because they have racist
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entitlements, not simply because of what they, what they
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say or how they behave, but they have racist entitlements
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I mean, whites are entitled to certain things also because
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they're whites in every country in the world.
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You even go to Africa and whites have white entitlements in
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South Africa and Zimbabwe.
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Anywhere you go, race is an overarching situation.
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So therefore when you have immigration, I people coming from
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India, you having people coming from India where there is
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a racialized structure.
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I mean, there's no question.
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Anybody who knows about India knows India is one of the most
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racialize societies in the world and it is even worse because
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it has the cast structure.
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So the caste system and Hinduism have embedded race in the
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very moral of that society.
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So you can't talk about Indian society without talking about
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Yet race is taboo in India.
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Then you move on to places like Iran, Turkey and the other Arab
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The same thing, race is embedded in everything that you do
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The whole imaginary, the whole symbolic you see um symbolic
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world in the Middle East is fundamentally racialized.
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I mean black is inferior, white is superior, white is beautiful
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Blacks occupy the worst positions in the society and whites
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occupy the ruling positions.
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Why then you go to Latin America or what is called Latin America
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you find that the native population so called Indian population
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black population, it's the same thing as in the Middle East
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and the same thing as in as in India.
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Worst situations are for the blacks and whites are occupying
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positions of power, prestige and pride.
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PPP power, prestige and pride.
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That's for what the exact opposite.
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Lack of power, lack of pride, a lack of prestige.
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That's for the blacks and the Indians.
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So therefore what happens when these people, when these whites
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immigrate into this country?
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When the whites, the blacks and the Indians come as immigrants
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they are coming from already an environment which is racialized
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So they come in to another racialized environment which has
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So what they do they switch the codes?
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The whites from Brazil come in, the blacks from Brazil come
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in and the Indians from Brazil come in.
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Three Brazilians come in but in their own countries, they
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occupy different social racial positions.
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The white has entitlement.
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And when he comes into the United States, he's looking for
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the same entitlements.
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He hooks up with the system of white entitlements in this country
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and he even this tweets and denies the Black Brazilian and
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the Indian Brazilian.
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So the same thing happened with the Indians, the Indians who
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come from Northern India, from Gujarat, from the Punjab and
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those Syrians who come from the south who are Dravidian were
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black skinned from the lower costs, civilians, they come
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You don't find them into mixing and having mixed marriages
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and those who come from the north and who call themselves indos
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automatically hook up into the system of white entitlements
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into this country and they hook up what they try to hook up with
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the vast majority here.
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They don't try to hook up with the Afro American population
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So the immigrant who comes from India, he's coming and he's
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bringing with him this baggage of race from India.
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And the same thing what happens with the one who's coming from
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Turkey, the one who's coming from Iraq.
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I mean, recently we saw the declaration of the Black Iraqi
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People didn't even know that they were blacks in Iraq that
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there are 2.5 million blacks in Iraq, in the south, in Basra
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they have been there for the last 1200 years.
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They were brought there as a consequence of the slave trade
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which was conducted in the 8th and 9th centuries.
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So throughout the Middle East is the same, the black populations
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of Iraq of Saudi Arabia have quit, quit of Syria throughout
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No, anybody even knows about these black populations.
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So when the Arab populations come here, these Arab populations
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who identify themselves as white, who came into the system
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they are looking for uh synchronization with the system
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of entitlements of whites in this country.
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But the Colombians do the same.
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The Dominicans do the same.
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The Cubans did it the first.
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This is why I said the the White Cubans were the first ones who
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successfully did it.
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They did not establish an alliance here.
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They did not seek a coalition with the African Americans who
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were struggling for civil rights in this country to the country
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They use the apparatus of affirmative action that the blacks
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had developed to entitle themselves as whites in this country
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And this is what the immigrants are doing mainly in this country
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But now you have a problem in this country.
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This is why it is important to understand the subtext of race
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because in this country, the white population of this country
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is very quickly becoming a minority demographically, it
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is shrinking So when people ask me about post racial society
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in America, I told them it's not, II I can't, I can't, I always
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say we're not talking about a post racial society.
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We're talking about a post white society which is different
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which has a greater possibility of being a democratic society
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than it has now because when the white majority will become
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a minority, which is going to occur in the next 20 to 30 years
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I mean, all demographers agree on this.
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There is no way you can forestall it.
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This country, the white majority is will disappear, is disappearing
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for all practical purposes.
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No longer is going to be a dominant fact.
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And the election of a black president in this country is a forerunner
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of things to come is something which is telling you about this
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changing of this society.
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But the race is pretty much a part of all of this, except that
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all of these racial minorities or racialized minorities
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are going to have to negotiate a form of coexistence in this
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I believe that will be, will make America a much better country
25:17
when minorities will have to negotiate how they're going
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to live because minorities are minorities and minorities
25:24
are fragile, they need each other.
25:26
A majority doesn't need anyone.
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So I I would say that race has to be seen in this context, not
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denied, has to be seen in this context, recognized for what
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So that we can we are able to create the proper mechanisms for
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vital and viable coalitions.
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