00:00
Welcome to astronaut's daughter.
00:02
I'm your host, Vanessa Hernandez and I am, in fact the daughter
00:05
of an astronaut in this episode.
00:07
I sit down with Michelle Barboza.
00:09
They are a paleontologist, a geology professor and a co host
00:15
We talk about the importance of diversity in science, how
00:19
we can make our natural world more accessible and we even play
00:42
Thank you so much for coming on my podcast.
00:44
I'm really excited to talk to you today.
00:46
I've never met a paleontologist in person before.
00:49
So I'm really excited.
00:51
The only context I have is Ross from friends who is known for
00:56
his paleontology studies and all of his friends give him crap
01:01
for it because it's, well, all my friends are paleontologist
01:03
so all my friends, it's very cool.
01:06
Well, I'd love to hear a little bit about you if you want to give
01:08
a brief introduction to who you are.
01:10
So, my name is Michelle pronouns, are they them?
01:13
I'm a paleontologist, also a geologist.
01:15
So kind of like you can say you're a neurosurgeon, but you're
01:19
Like I'm a geologist.
01:21
Um I work as a professor at Cal State Fullerton and I also work
01:25
as a science communicator.
01:26
So being a co-host for PB s's paleontology show called um Hated
01:34
I love to tell that to my students because like me being a scientist
01:38
right now, I'm used to it now.
01:40
But like if you had told me a couple of years ago that I was going
01:42
to be first of all a scientist and then second of all teaching
01:46
science and like, that's my whole life.
01:47
I would have said no, thank you.
01:49
That sounds so boring and I hate it.
01:51
Um I just like, I sucked at science in school.
01:55
I was like an English person and an artsy person and I was like
01:59
oh, I'll become, I don't know, a writer or something even
02:01
though I suck at writing too now that I think of it.
02:03
But I was just like, you know, science is like test tubes and
02:08
like a chalkboard with the equations and like all this stuff
02:11
that was just like, so boring, so strict too.
02:14
Yeah, I feel like as kids, you kind of have a preconceived notion
02:17
of what science is and you put it under one umbrella, but there's
02:22
so many different facets to it.
02:24
Did you grow up in a stem household?
02:27
Like, what did your parents do?
02:28
So, my parents are both teachers.
02:29
Um My mom's an elementary school.
02:31
Teacher and my dad's a junior high teacher.
02:33
So, like, they had, you know, a broad knowledge of like different
02:36
subjects of what they taught their students.
02:38
Um But they were not like science.
02:40
Like my mom was also a painter and my grandpa was in and his full
02:44
time job was being a painter.
02:46
Um So like, no, no one in my family did science or really understood
02:52
They never discouraged me.
02:54
But I mean, there was no one to sort of introduce me to that world
02:57
Like, you know, how we said science seems like one umbrella
03:00
Like I didn't even know that the job I have now exists, you know
03:05
I thought like the options where you could be like a lawyer
03:08
a doctor working in business or like whatever chemistry
03:12
people do, you know, like I didn't know.
03:15
And my parents being teachers, like my mom used to take me everywhere
03:19
like on our own field trip.
03:20
So I went to the museums and I liked the museums but it never
03:24
crossed my mind that like, oh, someone had to, like, find those
03:27
dinosaur fossils and like put them out on display and like
03:31
figure out what they are.
03:32
Like, I just, I never made that connection.
03:34
And so when I got to college, like, you have to take a science
03:38
class, like, even if you're an art major, what you have to take
03:41
one science class to graduate, like, as your GES.
03:43
So I was like, I'm not gonna do chemistry, I'm not going to do
03:47
Like geology is just rocks, right?
03:49
Like, that's got to be easy.
03:50
Like, just what is this rock and jokes on me?
03:53
Because now that's the, the class that I am teaching.
03:55
That is the class I taught right before I got here today.
03:57
Um But like, that's when I found out you can get paid to go hiking
04:01
and like, you can get paid to be the person that's like digging
04:04
up those dinosaur bones or like, that's when I realized, like
04:07
science was so much more than just the test tubes and the science
04:12
You know, I was like, wait, wait, wait, wait.
04:13
What else is there that I didn't know about, like, when you
04:18
were a kid, were there any books or movies or TV, shows that
04:22
really inspired you or that you just enjoyed consuming that
04:25
kind of shaped your curiosity as an adult.
04:28
Now, now that I think of it, I definitely love stuff like Zuma
04:32
and like the nature and the outdoors show.
04:35
And, you know, I'm a paleontologist by trade.
04:37
Like, that's what I studied and that's what I did my research
04:40
But now a lot of the work that I've been doing has been sort of
04:43
like with outdoor education.
04:45
So I also work with the National Park Service and I've worked
04:47
with the Natural History Museum and bridging that gap between
04:51
folks who live in this city and might not have access to the
04:55
outdoors and connecting them to that.
04:57
So even as a kid, like, I can remember watching all of documentary
05:01
shows and like animals and all these things that seem so cool
05:05
and that's somehow like coming back full circle and what I
05:08
what I'm into now again, that's so cool.
05:11
And you mentioned that you're a teacher yourself.
05:13
Did you have any teachers when you were a kid?
05:16
Maybe in college that really helped you and became a role model
05:22
So when I started um college and I took that geology class,
05:26
I went and changed my major on a whim and I was like, OK, I'm gonna
05:29
like, do geology because I remember like the first day of like
05:33
business class I walked in with like my blue hair, my docks
05:36
and my, like torn tights and my miniskirt.
05:38
And I was like, oh, this is like, not the place for me because
05:42
it was like, all like fat people and like very different than
05:45
what I was looking for.
05:47
And with geology, like you get to take your classes outside
05:50
Like you have to go outside and look up the rocks and like do
05:52
field trips and you go camping for school.
05:58
And so I was like, yes, this is what I'm changing my major.
06:00
So then the next semester I started taking a paleontology
06:03
class and I had just switched over.
06:06
I, like, truly didn't know what it meant to, like, be a science
06:08
major because plot twist, I did have to take chemistry and
06:11
physics to graduate.
06:13
But, like, that's not what I was planning on anyway.
06:15
I was in that paleo class and I just went up to the teacher and
06:19
I was like, hey, like, I just switched to be a geology major
06:23
I don't really know anything about it, but like, I'm excited
06:26
to take your class and like, figure out if this is what I want
06:30
And he ended up becoming my mentor for like the whole time that
06:34
I was an undergrad, he helped me get a job, like, I was working
06:38
at a guitar store at the time, which was very fun, but it was
06:40
far from campus and it, you know, I wanted to switch into doing
06:44
something that was related to my major.
06:46
So, uh he was connected to people who worked at the museum and
06:50
And then I asked him to be my mentor when I was doing my research
06:53
and he taught me what it meant to like, do science and like to
06:58
you know, study fossils and like, publish papers.
07:01
And when I got to grad school and now as a professor, I still
07:05
use a lot of the information that he taught me and the methods
07:09
And yeah, definitely, I attribute a lot of my success to having
07:12
someone that cared that much and was like, truly mentoring
07:17
And I love that you had the courage to go up to your professor
07:20
and let them know that this was an interest of yours because
07:24
you know, it set you on a different path and they introduced
07:27
you to so many different opportunities like your job at the
07:32
That's what I tell all my students.
07:35
Um like, I know you're scared.
07:36
I know, like, maybe you're a freshman, maybe you haven't talked
07:39
to your professors, but we have hundreds of students, right
07:42
And like, I try to remember everyone's names.
07:44
I can't always do it.
07:45
But I don't know if maybe the student sitting in the back of
07:48
my class is interested in geology and does want me to give them
07:52
more of that information or help them find an internship,
07:56
like talk to your professors.
07:57
Like let them just introduce yourself, tell them your name
08:00
you know, ask a couple questions in class, even if you ask
08:03
the wrong one or like, even if you don't have the right answer
08:06
just like they are there to help you.
08:09
You know, they can, I mean, I never planned to go to grad school
08:13
or like become a professor because we don't have the money
08:16
Like, that's so expensive.
08:18
And I remember I mentioned that to one of my professors and
08:21
they said, oh, you don't have to pay to go to grad school.
08:24
And I was like, excuse me originally I was doing business.
08:28
So like if you're going into business or a lot of other majors
08:31
like, yeah, you do have to pay to go to grad school.
08:33
But for science, for a lot of the sciences, especially what
08:38
If you are um you know, leaving L A, they will pay you to go to
08:44
So not only was my college tuition paid, but I was also paid
08:48
on top of that to like be a student.
08:50
Like I got money every month just to like pay my rent and like
08:56
you know, provide for myself so that I didn't have to work
08:58
and I could just focus on doing my research or working in the
09:02
And I would have had no idea if I hadn't just like talked to my
09:06
professor about it and I honestly didn't know that and I'm
09:09
sure a lot of people don't know that.
09:11
So that's a really great thing to share that.
09:13
Going back to when you were a kid, you didn't like science,
09:16
you weren't good at it.
09:17
Did you have a certain that you thought that you were going
09:20
to end up in and then decided not to do?
09:24
Um I wanted to open up like a vintage store.
09:28
Like I like shopping, I still do.
09:31
It shows that your passion is what I do on the side.
09:35
So I was like, well, I like to thrift so like, maybe I can make
09:39
Um, because like, again, truly, like, I did not know what careers
09:43
Like, I was like doctor, lawyer, scientist person, like none
09:47
of those things crazy how those jobs are so limited to us as
09:52
We're like, ok, these are the main jobs you go into.
09:55
And then when you start picking careers in college, there
09:59
are the basics like business, communications, engineering
10:03
Like those, it's like maybe you don't even know what career
10:06
You're just like getting a major because you're like, I need
10:09
So I am really grateful for the fact that we have to do like GES
10:12
because again, like I would have never taken it unless I was
10:15
forced to and I was and now here I am.
10:18
But like another, you know, advice that I always give my students
10:21
is like, join all the clubs, like try out everything once.
10:24
Like, you know, if you hit the club, you can always leave after
10:27
a meeting or two, but maybe you'll meet people there that have
10:30
Like I have a friend who was a major and like her job is to teach
10:36
You know, like to people.
10:37
She works for like a hotel.
10:39
She teaches the yoga.
10:40
She does like the activities, she loves crafting.
10:42
So she gets to do that for a living.
10:44
And that's like another job I would have never heard of or like
10:47
thought about and I worked for a while.
10:49
Um, my job title was Stem Ambassador, which sounds super fancy
10:52
But it just meant that I would go to high schools and talk to
10:55
kids about like, these are careers that I bet you never knew
10:59
And so I had a game that I would play with them where I was like
11:01
give me something you're interested in and I'll give you
11:03
like a science career that matches with it.
11:06
So like if you like music, you can be a sound engineer, right
11:09
Like you study engineering and you work with that technology
11:12
If you like video games, you could design video games and like
11:16
If you like skate parks, like you could be a skate park engineer
11:18
Like there's all these ways that whatever interests you have
11:22
can tie in to like science that maybe you just hadn't thought
11:26
of every school needs this.
11:30
There's so much more that we don't know.
11:32
What were you learning in your intro to geology class that
11:38
Ok, I need to talk to my professor and go into this because I
11:43
It's kind of silly, like, truly, I don't remember the majority
11:47
of the class, but I remember the moment I was like, excuse me
11:50
um We were talking about mitigation work which like big fancy
11:55
All it means is that in California, when you are doing any sort
11:59
of construction, like digging buildings, whatever you need
12:02
to have by law, an archaeologist and a paleontologist on site
12:06
because our state has so many fossils and so many artifacts
12:09
that like if they didn't have someone on it, they would just
12:13
So we do have laws protecting the fossils and the artifacts
12:16
So you need to have a paleontologist on site.
12:18
So that's government funded.
12:19
And that's like a steady, like actual job.
12:22
And like, I was going to college not too long after the recession
12:25
where, like, a lot of people didn't have jobs and like, everything
12:28
seemed very up in the air and I was like, wait, this is like a
12:31
study for a real job that you could have.
12:36
Like, I remember that really hit me.
12:38
I just, that was also the first time I'd heard of like, oh, like
12:41
a job as a geologist or as a paleontologist.
12:44
And then it kind of spiraled from there and I started researching
12:47
like, what does a paleontologist do?
12:49
And that's different from an archaeologist.
12:51
And here are all these things.
12:53
That was the moment it hit me, it literally was like, oh, yeah
12:56
you can get paid to do this thing we were learning about when
12:58
before, when I was in the class.
13:00
I was, I think just thinking like, oh, here's the thing to know
13:03
about why dirt is the color it is versus like, oh, maybe we care
13:07
about the dirt color because that affects whether people
13:10
are eating safe food or like, I just, I hadn't made that connection
13:14
and I remember that moment feeling the spark and I was like
13:17
oh, there's like, there's a reason we're learning this and
13:20
there's more to learn about it still.
13:23
Now, for people who aren't super familiar with, what paleontologists
13:27
do, you talked about how it's necessary to have people on site
13:33
monitoring and, you know, involved in that whole process
13:37
What do they actually, what are they there for?
13:39
So like just broadly, a paleontologist is someone who studies
13:44
ancient life on earth basically.
13:46
So we're different from archaeologists.
13:48
You can think of like, in a simplified way, archaeologists
13:50
work with like humans and onward and like paleontologists
13:54
work with basically everything that came before that.
13:56
So like the earth is really old.
13:59
Like, how old do you think the earth is like in millions of years
14:06
So it's like 4.6 billion years old, this planet that we live
14:10
Um Which means that it hasn't always been around because the
14:13
universe is 13 billion years old.
14:14
So we've been around for like a third of it.
14:17
And so I start a lot of my classes with my students being like
14:20
where did the earth come from?
14:21
And they're like, oh, yeah, like this planet hasn't always
14:24
So, we are studying paleontologists from the point that,
14:27
like, our earth has existed until basically, like, 10,000
14:31
Like, anything that's over 10,000 years we consider a fossil
14:35
And so we study, like, what, what was going on back then, right
14:39
Like, what was the climate, like?
14:41
What kind of animals lived here and like, why don't they live
14:44
Because we know a lot of animals are extinct and like, what
14:47
caused them to go extinct because a lot of the same things that
14:50
killed off a lot of life before is happening now.
14:53
And so using that as almost like experiments or models or examples
14:58
of what could happen to us in the present, I mean, that's why
15:01
it's useful, but also it's just like, really cool.
15:03
Like, I just love learning about dinosaurs and they were two
15:06
tigers and stuff, you know.
15:08
So I was like, oh, I can do something really cool and interesting
15:11
So, yeah, that's what paleontology is.
15:13
But like, you can do different careers of paleontology.
15:16
So there's mitigation, paleontology that's essentially
15:19
people are already digging in an area.
15:21
And you're just kind of like, are there fossils there though
15:24
If you are like a researcher or at a museum, you have to like
15:29
get that money to go out into the desert or wherever you're
15:35
Dinosaurs or any other sort of life and kind of fill in the pieces
15:40
of the puzzle, right?
15:41
Like you can think of geology and paleontology as like we have
15:45
a book and we're starting to add in the field notes to like,
15:48
oh, we know on June 24th, 2022 this was happening, but maybe
15:53
we don't know what happened on July 24.
15:56
And so every time we're going out on a new dig, we're like, getting
16:00
a little bit more information to fill in that scrapbook.
16:02
I like the history of the story.
16:04
You're putting together a story of what happened.
16:07
It's like the most amazing story.
16:10
My favorite class to teach is History of the Earth.
16:14
And I'm like, we're going to learn 4.6 billion years in six
16:19
Like, there's so much that has happened.
16:22
It's like the most incredible like movie or book you could
16:25
ever think of the like literal history that's happened here
16:28
You know, there's like lots of sci-fi movies and like cool
16:30
stuff happening in Hollywood now.
16:32
And like my friends and I always joke, like, if they only knew
16:35
what has already happened and they could just like, take that
16:38
stuff and like, you know, reboot it on screen.
16:41
Like there's so many stories that that's a great change to
16:44
into my next question because I was going to ask you how paleontology
16:47
influences our lives right now.
16:49
And I think that happens, we see it in movies and, you know,
16:52
we have this natural curiosity of what happened before we
16:57
And so I wanted to ask you what your opinion was on that one way
17:00
that I think paleontology has a big influence is those kids
17:05
that you used to babysit that were like, I love dinosaurs.
17:08
Let's learn about this kind of stuff from kids that age to like
17:11
people now that also think they don't like science.
17:14
Like everyone loves a dinosaur, everyone wants to learn a
17:17
little bit about like, oh, like what is this big thing?
17:20
And like, how come it doesn't exist anymore?
17:22
It's like this like secret entry into science that people
17:27
can feel comfortable joining in.
17:29
And I work with a group of friends with a program called Cosway
17:34
And we always talk about how we're like trying to sneak in science
17:38
to people and like psych, you're actually learning a lot science
17:41
So what we do, like the whole reason Cosway for science started
17:44
is all my friends are patos.
17:46
We're all nerds and we would have like events at the museums
17:52
where we would have out like fossils and be like, ask us anything
17:55
and people would be kind of like nervous.
17:58
Um I don't know if it's because like, oh it's a scientist and
18:01
I don't want to sound dumb in front of the scientist, right
18:03
Like I think that's a genuine fear, which I mean, we're asking
18:07
all the same questions you are like, that's how we figured
18:09
stuff out, but people would be really nervous.
18:11
So we started dressing up as like Jurassic Park characters
18:15
you know, like Alan Grant and all the thing and then people
18:19
would see the characters they like from the movie and be like
18:21
oh my God, like, is this like from the movie?
18:23
And then the conversation would go really easily.
18:26
Um And, you know, they ended up learning and so we ended up doing
18:30
more events like that where we'd get a little bit crazier.
18:32
Like we did a Pokemon museum.
18:34
It's like Pokemon is based on, or a lot of the Pokemon are based
18:39
on like real animals and sometimes even real fossil animals
18:42
So there's like a mammoth Pokemon and there's like a horseshoe
18:47
And so people would be like, oh, I know all about Pokemon, like
18:49
let's talk and then we'd be like, but also like, there was
18:52
a real one of these that actually live on our planet.
18:56
So we'd be tricking them into learning some fun science.
19:00
And I think paleontology is like a really good way of where
19:03
Like, it's, it seems less scary, I think to talk to someone
19:06
about like a dinosaur than it is to talk to someone about a chemistry
19:11
But we could, we could sneak in some chemistry, you know, if
19:14
if you get a little braver.
19:15
So I, I love that about my fields.
19:18
Um, and that's what I found that I love doing more than anything
19:22
I, I did research, um, when I was in grad school and an undergrad
19:26
But now most of what I do is talking to people about science
19:31
like people who, who don't know science or think they don't
19:33
like science and maybe changing their minds a little bit.
19:37
Yeah, I think you hit on a really cool and interesting point
19:41
is that a lot of people are often afraid to talk to scientists
19:46
and riff with them about their field because they don't want
19:49
to come across as dumb or knowing less than, and I relate to
19:53
that so much, especially with this podcast.
19:56
I'm talking to so many intelligent people in their field and
20:01
But I think when you, when you bring it to a level where it's
20:05
comfortable and it's more casual, you're inviting them to
20:08
engage in a conversation and hopefully they learn something
20:12
and they take away from it.
20:13
You know, I think learning is so much fun and you make it sound
20:16
so fun by doing it in different ways.
20:19
Like I would have never thought dressing up in cosplay and
20:23
having these events and engaging with people on, you know
20:27
you have a commonality of, you know, this show or this, you
20:30
know, Pokemon or something like that and it invites conversation
20:35
I think that's so, so cool.
20:36
I love meeting people like, where they are, right?
20:39
Like people feel empowered and definitely know more about
20:42
like Pokemon or like Star Wars than I do.
20:44
And so like, now it's not just that I'm the expert, like you're
20:47
also an expert and let's learn from each other.
20:50
That is so like, such a better way to learn.
20:53
Are there any specific ways that new discoveries in paleontology
20:57
are going to change our daily lives?
21:01
So the saying that we use for paleontology is that the past
21:06
is the key to the present because a lot of things that are happening
21:10
now have already happened and will happen again, right?
21:13
And so knowing if you know something already happened, what
21:17
was the result can be really helpful, especially like right
21:20
now, for example, climate change, right?
21:22
It's a big issue that we should be taking even more seriously
21:26
than we are right now.
21:27
You can think of the fact that for example, carbon dioxide
21:29
levels are rising and that's causing our earth to warm up.
21:33
This is not the first time it's happened in earth history.
21:36
And that's not to say that we shouldn't worry about it because
21:38
it already happened, right?
21:39
People talk about how there have been like fluctuations in
21:42
temperatures throughout earth history, which is correct
21:45
but not to the extent that it's happening now or should I say
21:48
not at the like sped up time levels right before it might have
21:51
happened over millions or hundreds of millions of years.
21:54
And now it's like hundreds of years, which is not good.
21:57
But if we can see, ok, if the carbon dioxide levels like skyrocketed
22:03
before, how did the organisms living on earth fare?
22:08
Not so great, right?
22:09
Like we should probably be taking care of that right now.
22:13
And so knowing that, you know, we're not just worrying for
22:16
no reason, but we can also see like all right, if we are not taking
22:20
care of the rising carbon dioxide levels or the things that
22:23
are causing climate change, what are the effects that are
22:26
So we can start preparing for those effects to prepare people
22:28
So if we know that for example, sea level is going to rise because
22:32
the glaciers are melting, knowing that ahead of time means
22:35
we can start preparing by moving people out of those areas
22:38
or thinking about not developing in those areas, right?
22:41
So one of the ways that studying paleontology has changed
22:46
the way that I see the world is understanding that timescale
22:50
We tend to think of ourselves as someone who lived 100 had a
22:56
And I think of things on scales of millions, if not billions
23:01
And I do this um this activity with my students in class where
23:05
we make a timeline of the history of the earth to scale because
23:09
a lot of the times when you see it, it's like all condensed.
23:11
So it looks pretty short.
23:13
But we do this scale.
23:14
So we do like a 4.6 m long like paper or a piece of string and they
23:20
map out like the earth was created.
23:22
And then there's like the first life on earth, but it's just
23:25
like unicellular, it's like bacteria and then the first multicellular
23:29
life and then they're like taking like steps like they're
23:32
going a meter, right?
23:33
And like nothing is happening.
23:35
I mean, things are happening but nothing that we would consider
23:39
You don't get like life as we know it, like multicellular,
23:42
visible life until the last 18% of earth's history.
23:47
Like we're nothing, you know, you try to put like dinosaurs
23:51
and humans and they're all kind of piling on top of each other
23:54
because compared to the rest of earth, earth was this uninhabitable
23:59
molten like non breathable planet for a really long time.
24:04
And it's only been very recently that it's something that
24:06
we can survive on and we like just being like living organisms
24:12
So understanding that whole scale of time is just very humbling
24:18
and like helps me appreciate my planet and my universe so much
24:22
I'm going to tell you right now, it's like blowing my mind trying
24:26
to wrap my head around it that it's so because like you said
24:31
100 years is usually kind of the life span that we're we're
24:35
working with or you know, everyone kind of just is in, that's
24:39
like what we can not even scratching the surface of what our
24:45
You know, earth with that being said, understanding that
24:50
science as especially as it relates to nature.
24:54
How does understanding that science improve our society
24:57
Yeah, I think not taking for granted the world that is around
25:03
Like take L A for example, we're in the L A basin right now and
25:07
we're used to it being this beautiful, like lush, nice place
25:11
to live where it's sunny almost every day.
25:13
But this place was underwater for most of its existence.
25:18
This was not L A as we know it, right?
25:20
Like there used to be crocodiles here and like swamps and that's
25:23
what I studied when I was doing my research, the earth as we
25:27
know it, it's just like a tiny blink in time and it has looked
25:30
so different over so much of the time.
25:32
And if we want to take care of it in terms of a way that we're comfortable
25:36
living in it, then we have to understand that this is not something
25:40
to take for granted, right?
25:41
This is, this is something that can change in an instant if
25:44
we're not paying attention as a professor.
25:47
I assume that you try to teach with this mindset.
25:51
What is it like teaching?
25:53
And you know, I know you said that you love just communicating
25:57
science and really teaching all that you have to know and passing
26:04
What is that like for you being a professor?
26:06
I hope fun for my students.
26:09
I think it's like super fun.
26:10
I will go up and dance in front of class and I'll bring students
26:14
up and they have to pretend to be a tectonic plates.
26:16
But the thing that I try to get across to all my students is first
26:20
of all, like, you don't have to love science or think you're
26:24
good at science to be good in this class.
26:26
I told them I'm not trying to make you all a scientist like I
26:29
But I want you to be a lawyer or a business person or whatever
26:34
you go to do that does understand the importance of science
26:38
and that you can ask questions about science, right?
26:41
Going back to that idea of like I know what I thought before
26:45
I was a science scientist.
26:46
Is that science is this closed box?
26:49
It's like these answers that we already know.
26:51
And like if you don't understand it, well, don't even bother
26:54
asking because you're not going to be able to participate
26:56
And that's not what it is.
26:58
The biggest discovery that I made as I was starting to be a science
27:02
student was like, everyone is asking questions like that's
27:04
what research is like, we don't know all the answers and sometimes
27:08
we figure out that those answers are not correct, right?
27:12
Because we get new information.
27:13
So we got to rethink the way that we were viewing something
27:16
And so that was really exciting.
27:17
It was this idea that science is dynamic and changing and needs
27:21
people to ask what sometimes might seem like a dumb question
27:25
But like, do we actually know the answer?
27:27
Can't we explain that?
27:28
So I want my students to have curiosity and to have like autonomy
27:34
and feel powerful enough to ask those questions either to
27:37
me or when they leave my class and maybe they're trying to learn
27:41
about whether a vaccine is safe to take or not.
27:43
They can ask those questions and they can do some research
27:46
and they can understand how to read or find someone who can
27:50
help them understand that science.
27:52
So I mean, again, like you don't, you know, if you're watching
27:55
this podcast, it's fine.
27:56
You don't have to become a scientist, but you can still ask
27:59
questions about science.
28:00
You can still like participate and be involved.
28:02
Like science is just asking questions.
28:04
It's being curious, right?
28:06
Like we're doing that every day.
28:07
And I love how college is not the only place for learning.
28:11
We often think that learning stops when we graduate and we
28:14
go into our respective fields, we can learn about new things
28:20
And I love the internet.
28:21
Yes, we have the internet but I love how you're just making
28:25
it more approachable for others to just ask questions and
28:29
not have that fear of sounding dumb or not feeling like they're
28:33
welcomed that space to have these conversations and just
28:38
And I mean, that's another thing that I love about like modern
28:42
social media is you can talk to like real scientists, right
28:45
Like I'm a real paleontologist like that, you can ask a question
28:48
to, you can message me on Instagram and I'll answer your question
28:51
I'd love to do that.
28:52
Like you can communicate with people.
28:54
But some of the other things that I've been focusing on doing
28:57
is I'm actually trying to start a group right now.
28:59
That's like a queer people of color, like outdoor collective
29:03
So a lot of people feel like in the same way that science isn't
29:06
approachable, like going on a hike or getting outside might
29:09
seem a little scary like, oh, I don't have the right gear.
29:12
I don't have hiking shoes.
29:14
So helping people get outdoors and then learn about what's
29:19
Like, the reason I liked being outdoors and the reason I ended
29:22
up becoming a geologist is I would go hiking in the L A mountains
29:26
and be like, why is there a mountain here or like, why are the
29:30
trees different when I go higher versus lower?
29:33
Like those are questions I was already asking and I didn't
29:35
realize that was science right?
29:36
Like asking those questions is science finding the answer
29:40
to those questions that science, right?
29:42
The answer is there was a tectonic plate called the Far plate
29:46
which was skinny and it was like under the ocean and it crashed
29:49
with the North American plate.
29:51
That's like the rest of our country and it got sucked underneath
29:54
the plate and all of the magma that rose up is basically like
29:58
the mountain ranges that we live on.
30:00
Like that's so cool.
30:01
There's so much you can learn about.
30:04
You just have to take the moment to ask that question, right
30:06
And the coolest thing I think also about California is that
30:10
it's so large and you can be by the beach and then go to the mountains
30:16
and then go to the desert all within a day if you're in kind of
30:20
you know, the L A area.
30:21
But then you can go up north and go to the redwoods and it's just
30:24
there's so much to learn, there's volcanoes up there.
30:28
We have all the different types of rocks here.
30:30
We have the igneous sedimentary metamorphic.
30:32
We have all the different, different time periods here too
30:35
Like you can find some dinosaurs, not a lot, we were mostly
30:38
underwater during dinosaur times, but you can also find the
30:41
oldest fossils to ever exist.
30:43
They're over out by the Mojave Desert and you can find really
30:46
recent fossils at the Libre Tar Pits, right?
30:49
Those are fossils that are only like 3 million years old, which
30:53
only 3 million is actually really young.
30:54
Remembering that the earth is 4.6 billion.
30:57
Um So we have like all of the different fossil types, all of
31:00
the rock types we like.
31:02
Our state is on two different tectonic plates.
31:05
We're on an oceanic plate, the Pacific plate and the rest,
31:09
most of the rest of the country is on the North American Plate
31:13
Like there's a lot going on here geologically.
31:15
It's a great place to do geology and a great place to just like
31:20
I, I did want to ask in all of your experiences, did you ever
31:24
have a place where you thought?
31:26
OK, maybe this isn't the spot for me.
31:29
Maybe I don't have a place here or did that make you work even
31:33
harder to show people that you do belong here?
31:36
Yeah, I definitely had a moment where I was like, this is not
31:40
fun, but that made me double back for sure.
31:43
I started my own podcast for like a class.
31:46
So I ended up double majoring sort of I have a paleontology
31:50
degree, but I also have a degree in gender studies because
31:54
I just wanted to learn more.
31:56
And so I mentioned to my mentor that I wanted to take some of
31:59
these classes and I wanted to learn more about the history
32:02
of women and underrepresented people in STEM.
32:04
And I was like, I'm just going to start a podcast because I'm
32:06
going to do all this research.
32:07
So I might as well share it.
32:09
And so he was like, well, why don't you get a degree along with
32:11
it if you're doing all this work?
32:13
And I was like, oh, that's awesome genius.
32:15
So, yeah, like I doubled down, I got studies and like, for me
32:19
as a scientist, I like to have like facts and that made me feel
32:22
more powerful when people would say things like, oh, well
32:25
you're not going to find the history of Latinos in STEM because
32:28
you guys have only been able to go to school for the last 50 years
32:31
or you've only had, you know, things like that, that they said
32:36
And so then I'd be able to clap back with all of these facts and
32:39
information because OK, you want to talk facts here are the
32:42
facts and I have information to give back to you, but it's tiring
32:47
you know, it does get tiring.
32:48
So I don't know, I'm happy where I am now again.
32:53
And I want to continue to make sure that people can see us here
32:56
Yeah, that's amazing.
32:57
And I think that's a big reason why this podcast exists too
33:00
is to give a platform for, you know, those voices and to share
33:04
that these careers are a possibility and there's a place for
33:07
everyone everywhere.
33:08
So, you know, as long as you work hard for it, you'll get there
33:12
There are some ways that us as a society can do better to make
33:16
science more accessible to different communities or communities
33:20
who may be underserved?
33:22
Oh, that's such a big question.
33:25
And it's OK if you don't have like a sad answer.
33:27
But it's just something that I like to ask each of my guests
33:30
because everyone has a different perspective and a different
33:34
Yeah, there's a phrase I heard recently and I hope I'm repeating
33:39
But it was sharing space without sharing power is tokenism
33:45
So inviting people of color, inviting queer folks, inviting
33:49
people who have accessibility issues, whoever you want to
33:52
call it into your space to like show aha, we are diverse is not
33:57
fixing the diversity problem.
33:59
That's, that's tokenism that's having a face there.
34:02
It's asking them to participate in creating the curricula
34:06
and creating new standards in recruitment and whatever aspect
34:12
of this field you want to talk about.
34:13
That's when you are starting to actually address the problem
34:18
So sharing space without sharing power that that does nothing
34:22
I think that's really important to remember.
34:24
That's a really good answer.
34:25
And I think we see it a lot, right?
34:27
We see companies, we see classrooms, we see universities
34:32
kind of fit a quota but stop there.
34:35
It's like, OK, well, you need to dig a little deeper, push it
34:40
Yeah, I think another thing I was really interested in and
34:42
the reason I got that gender studies certificate was I wanted
34:46
to think more about the intersection of humanities and science
34:50
Again, there was this idea and there still is this idea that
34:53
science is objective, right?
34:54
It's a fact, is a fact and you're done, but that's not right
34:58
There's like science is part of society, it's part of people
35:01
it's affecting people.
35:02
So let's talk about that.
35:03
It's like I teach geology and you would think, oh, well, geology
35:07
Like how is that affecting people or how could geology be racist
35:11
But um let's talk about oil and how oil is on native land and
35:16
is ruining their lands.
35:17
That's part of geology.
35:19
Let's talk about how, you know, if we're just talking geography
35:22
a lot of places in the US still have really derogatory names
35:26
that are like their actual official names that we haven't
35:28
There's so many um climate change, climate change is a racial
35:33
It's a social justice issue because it's disproportionately
35:35
affecting people of color and people who are in underserved
35:38
communities because they don't have the money to get out of
35:41
the places that are being most intensely affected.
35:44
So, humanities and science, they overlap and we need to be
35:47
thinking about that as well.
35:48
We need to be teaching that in our schools.
35:50
We need to be talking about it.
35:52
Definitely, I definitely think that should be taught in schools
35:56
You're a professor because you are, you're doing it.
35:58
You're in, in trying in the weeds, helping us pave that way
36:03
So, I really admire you for the work that you've done.
36:05
Is there anything professional in your work that you plan
36:09
on doing in the future?
36:11
What it was kind of your next steps?
36:13
What do you see yourself?
36:15
So, right now I'm a part time lecturer.
36:17
I would like to eventually become full time.
36:20
But I love being a professor because I have the flexibility
36:26
So sometimes I'll work with the National Park Service and
36:29
right now I'm helping them do an internship for Latinx families
36:33
in L A to get outdoors and to have the opportunity to bust them
36:38
out to our National Parks or visit places they haven't been
36:42
I worked in East L A with some teens doing a marine science internship
36:46
and they'd never been to the beach before, but they lived in
36:49
East L A because there's no transportation that'll get you
36:52
So if I'm just a professor, which I love, like, I love teaching
36:56
and I love being with my college students, but they're privileged
36:59
in a way that I might not be able to reach other people.
37:02
So, doing these other internships or starting my Bio Nature
37:06
Collective and being to reach, not just, you know, my 18 to
37:10
25 year old from college, but everyone that I can get a hold
37:14
of, I mean, maybe it's a little ambitious, but that's what
37:17
We love ambition over here.
37:19
So I think that's all really great.
37:21
There's so many opportunities.
37:23
Um not even just like if you want to become a paleontologist
37:27
but if you just kind of want to do it on the side, like at museums
37:30
they need volunteers and volunteers can literally like
37:34
clean fossils and like go on fossil digs and you don't need
37:38
to have any training.
37:38
You don't need to be a scientist.
37:40
Like they will train you at the museum, which is amazing.
37:42
So definitely reach out to your local museum and be like, hey
37:46
do you need volunteers?
37:47
I would love to come help out because that's how we get a lot
37:51
But you can also, you know, again, if you're in college, talk
37:54
to your professors and be like, let me know if there's an internship
37:58
or something you hear about because we do hear about a lot of
38:01
There's a lot of professional societies like we have GS A which
38:04
is the Geological Society of America.
38:06
And every summer, they do internships specifically for undergrads
38:11
or early career students where you go and work in National
38:14
Parks for the summer and you get paid to do that.
38:16
I got to do one of those.
38:18
Um I actually lived in Panama for a summer and I was like doing
38:24
And guess what, it was all paid for.
38:25
Like, not only did I not have to pay to go to Panama.
38:28
They paid me, they paid for my plane, they played for my apartment
38:31
they paid me to be there.
38:33
Like, I, I got to travel the world on the money of, like, science
38:39
and like, not only was it paid for, but for me it was more fun
38:42
because I wasn't just visiting the country.
38:44
I was like doing something there, right?
38:46
I was like learning about it and that that has been so fun.
38:49
So study abroad opportunities like working for National
38:52
Parks if you're not interested in paleo, but you want to be
38:55
part of a community.
38:56
I would always recommend looking at their professional society
38:58
So we have Geological Society of America, but there's like
39:01
the psychological society or whatever you might be interested
39:04
And then also like see if you can follow those people on social
39:08
Like I personally am always posting about opportunities
39:11
on my Instagram, not just in L A but like around the country
39:15
because I know I have followers from like all over.
39:17
And so I have colleagues that work in like different parts
39:19
of different states and they'll send me what they're doing
39:21
And I'm like, yes, like let's share it, let's have everyone
39:24
like learn about it.
39:25
So Twitter Instagram, like you can literally follow scientists
39:29
or these National Parks or wherever, you know, you would want
39:34
to work and they'll let you know, that is my favorite thing
39:36
about social media and being on the internet nowadays is that
39:40
you can connect with literally anyone, anyone in your area
39:44
anyone in an area where you want to be and look out for those
39:48
I think that's amazing.
39:50
What I found with most of these opportunities is like the,
39:53
the people who are trying to advertise them can't figure out
39:55
like how to reach more people, right?
39:57
Like they want to reach people and they haven't figured out
39:59
And I mean, that's another issue all on its own.
40:01
Like if a museum, for example, is trying to reach people who
40:05
don't normally come to their museum, but they're just posting
40:07
on their social media, then they're only showing it to people
40:10
who are already there.
40:11
So I've been working a lot with trying to connect with local
40:14
communities, whether it's like our immigration lawyers
40:17
who are here or our community center or putting flyers at the
40:21
like, you know, OG printed out style because that's where
40:24
you can find new people.
40:25
But I mean, if you're savvy and you're on the internet, like
40:28
maybe you start following some people that have the same interests
40:31
that you do or that are doing what you aspire to and see what
40:37
Where can people find you on social media since we're on the
40:40
I'm a Latinx naturalist on Instagram.
40:44
That's where I'm most active.
40:45
And I think I'm also Latinx naturalist on Tiktok.
40:50
Now, when you find a fossil, like, for example, all of the dinosaurs
40:54
that we've found, how do we know what they actually look like
40:59
if we only have their remains?
41:02
That's such a great question.
41:03
So, we work a lot with, uh, biologists, right.
41:07
Sometimes they're called paleobiologist.
41:10
I'm a paleontologist because I work with more with geology
41:13
But in the same way that if you think about like true crime and
41:17
we can reconstruct a skull, like we're adding on, ok, a skull
41:21
needs to have muscles, right?
41:23
So we're going to add on the muscles and then a skull needs to
41:26
And so we're going to add on the skin.
41:27
So we can do the same thing with extinct animals mostly by looking
41:31
at what are their closest living relatives.
41:33
So, like a Saber tooth tiger, for example.
41:35
Well, Saber tooth, we know that they're very similar to big
41:39
cats of today because they have similar bone structures,
41:42
I mean, they've got the teeth, but we know that they're not
41:44
going to probably be purple and spotted because that wouldn't
41:47
make sense for their camouflaging.
41:49
It wouldn't make sense for where they live.
41:51
So we can have some idea there.
41:53
We know that they're probably going to have shorter, you know
41:56
fur just like our modern cats.
41:58
And then if we're lucky if we're able to get any DNA, we can also
42:02
start to read their genome and be able to determine what sorts
42:07
of genes were turned on or off.
42:08
We can even do that with like our ancient human ancestors to
42:11
reconstruct their facial expressions and what their bodies
42:16
So it's a combination of like, we know that there has to be muscle
42:19
on top of a bone and like if a bone is thicker and it has more space
42:23
for more muscle to attach to, you know, you're adding a bigger
42:25
amount of muscle versus less.
42:27
So it's a lot of just like anatomy that we understand today
42:30
adding it on to the bones that we find a little bit of everything
42:35
you know, our jigsaw there.
42:38
I have always wondered that and I had the perfect opportunity
42:42
So, thank you so much a question question.
42:44
Um Moving on to some of the work you actually brought some geology
42:48
samples for us to look at right now.
42:50
So I'd love for you to just pick out one of your favorites and
42:52
we can go through it.
42:54
So I can't pick a favorite, but let's look at this salt because
43:00
this is actually what I was talking about with my students
43:02
in class last weekend.
43:03
This is a lava rock, right?
43:05
This rock specifically forms only from lava like lava and
43:10
Eventually they cool down and once they're cooled down, we
43:12
call it a rock, this is what it looks like.
43:14
So this used to be lava, like literal lava that would burn through
43:18
your hand and eventually it cooled down.
43:20
And so we can find those rocks not too far from campus, like
43:24
just a couple of miles.
43:26
And how long does it take for it to cool for me to actually hold
43:30
So like years to hundreds of years for lava.
43:36
I can take that crazy.
43:38
So this rock is also made of molten rock that's made from lava
43:42
So lava and magma secret, it's just the ma they're the same
43:46
Magma is what we call it when it's below ground.
43:49
Lava is what we call it when it's above ground.
43:51
So if I say lava, like there was a volcano, if I say magma, that
43:55
volcano never erupted and the stuff stayed underground.
43:58
So do you notice a big difference between the two in terms of
44:02
like the color and the texture?
44:06
You even knew the word texture.
44:08
So like the lava rock, right?
44:10
It just looks like one color.
44:12
But the rock that you're holding that's made of magma.
44:15
You can see individual little pieces.
44:17
Each one of those is a crystal, each one is a mineral.
44:20
So you can see the individual minerals that grew because it's
44:23
like underground magma that's like an oven.
44:26
So you can imagine the crystals are growing in the nice warm
44:29
oven when it becomes lava, it gets shot out of the oven into
44:33
And so all the minerals are like, oh no, I don't get to grow and
44:36
you know, they're stuck this lava rock.
44:38
We said like cools over a couple of years to a couple of 100 years
44:41
That's going to take thousands to millions of years to cool
44:48
And then how do geologists know when they can go in and collect
44:54
So we don't go underground to collect them underground.
44:56
Comes to us, Sierra Nevadas, right?
45:00
We have that whole entire mountain range that goes from just
45:03
north of L A all the way to basically San Francisco.
45:07
That entire mountain range is one giant magma chamber.
45:11
All of that rock was just molten magma that never like, that's
45:16
how big a magma chamber can be that entire mountain range.
45:21
And so the reason it's like above ground now is that magma chamber
45:24
was molten like 250 million years ago.
45:28
So like during dinosaur times and a lot can happen over 250
45:31
million years, essentially everything on top eroded away
45:35
So like wind water rivers, gravity, dinosaurs walking on
45:39
top of it, like all the rocks above it just kind of got like disintegrated
45:43
You can think of it.
45:44
But these rocks are stronger than most other rocks.
45:47
So still standing now, they're the tallest thing around,
45:49
but they used to be underground.
45:51
This is so cool and you know, rock, you can look at something
45:55
and be like there was a magma chamber here or like again the
45:59
lava rock, it's called Basalt.
46:00
If you want a fancy name, you can find it like two blocks from
46:03
campus which means there used to be volcanoes in Orange County
46:09
And you can know that just by looking at the rock.
46:13
Thank you so much for bringing this and showing us.
46:16
That's why I told everyone like, you don't need to discover
46:20
the next kind of rock.
46:20
But like, you know, now you can go out hiking and you have all
46:27
I, I don't know why this is stuck in my head right now.
46:30
But I have you seen the movie where Donkey is?
46:32
Like, I like that folder.
46:35
That's a nice folder.
46:36
This is time right now.
46:39
Well, thank you so much for bringing this.
46:41
This is so interesting and I now when I look at rocks, I'm going
46:45
to be like, there's a story behind me and be like, I'll text
46:49
you pictures and be like, where is this from?
46:51
I will be so awesome.
46:55
I love to end on this note and give some advice to nine and 10
46:59
year olds out there who may be interested in this field or,
47:03
you know, if they go into this field.
47:06
What would they be studying when it's time?
47:10
You know, if they're in your shoes?
47:13
Um, you can, like, go out and map what rocks exist around the
47:18
Like we have a lot of maps that show us like this rock is the Sierra
47:22
Nevadas and this rock is here.
47:23
But there are still places where we don't know like what rocks
47:26
are there or what faults are there that are going to cause earthquakes
47:30
or I mean, we're still filling out that whole book that we were
47:33
talking about like history of the earth as it has been.
47:36
But also the way that the earth looks right now, like there's
47:39
so much left to learn, there's so much left to explore in the
47:43
So if you want to just explore and ask questions and be like
47:46
why does that rock look like that?
47:48
That's what real scientists are doing, right?
47:51
Like that's what the professional scientists are doing.
47:52
We publish papers on the things that we got wrong so that other
47:56
Oh, that's not the right answer.
47:58
Let's try it a different way.
47:59
Like that's totally OK.
48:00
That's what's really going on behind the scenes.
48:03
We're asking questions, we're getting wrong answers, we're
48:06
getting different answers.
48:07
Like that's totally fine.
48:08
Don't be afraid to fail, don't be afraid to sound dumb, right
48:11
Like you might be asking a question that we hadn't even thought
48:15
So just keep asking questions.
48:17
And I think it's important to also remind everyone that you
48:20
didn't start this until well into college until you were taking
48:24
this intro, um, general classes in college.
48:28
So it's ok if you figure out later on in life to what it is, you
48:32
actually want to do 100%.
48:34
And again, if you like science, but you don't want that to be
48:36
your career, that's fine.
48:37
You can still be interested.
48:38
You can volunteer at the museum part time.
48:41
Like you can just watch cool podcasts like this and learn a
48:44
little bit more and be more informed.
48:46
You don't have to do all or nothing, you know, and you don't
48:48
have to love it to be your career, but you can still, you can
48:52
still have fun asking those questions.
48:53
That's such great advice.
48:55
Thank you so much again, Michelle for being, thank you for
48:58
This was really fun.
49:00
I think this has been my favorite topic so far and I think it's
49:04
because of your passion and for the topic.
49:07
And so I just want to thank you so much for being here and teaching
49:12
Thank you for joining us on another episode of astronauts
49:16
Be sure to check out.
49:17
We are me too dot com slash astronauts daughter and you can
49:21
follow me on all social at the Vanessa Hernandez.
49:25
I'll catch you on our next episode.
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