00:00
Hola. I'm Claudia Romo Edelman and I'm Cynthia Cleo Milne.
00:03
And this is a podcast,
00:04
a La Latina, the playbook to succeed being your authentic self
00:08
today. An incredible guest,
00:10
Dr Ana Zep. Doctor Zep is an associate professor of OBGYN
00:14
at the Columbia University Medical Center.
00:17
And here are the three key takeaways.
00:19
Number one, she teaches us the power of belonging to an
00:22
affinity group as a way to navigate,
00:24
get new and homogeneous environments where you may feel like you don't
00:30
not having the financial means should never stop you from chasing your
00:34
big dreams. And number three,
00:36
she talks to us about how important it is to have role
00:39
models early in your life in her case,
00:42
becoming a doctor was inspired by her own Dominican pediatrician.
00:46
All of that and more here,
00:48
a La Latina Cynthia.
00:57
Tell me more about money.
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Thank you. I made it today an incredible guest.
01:49
Doctor Anna Sapin. Doctor Sapin is an associate professor of obstetrics
01:54
and Gynecology at Columbia University Irving Medical Center.
01:57
She's also the Director of Community Women's Health and the core of
02:01
the OBGYN Office of Diversity Equity and Inclusion.
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Lastly, she's co president of the Latino Association at Columbia University
02:09
Medical School. Ana Doctor Zin.
02:13
What a pleasure having you here.
02:14
Thank you so much for the invitation and I'm really happy to
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be here today. I I think the audience is gonna
02:21
have a very different experience in this episode because one doesn't think
02:26
of a medical career as a corporate career immediately,
02:29
right? But you have a career that spans both the medical
02:32
field and more the administrative field.
02:34
So I'm excited for our audience to know what's the path of
02:38
somebody that studies medicine that works in a large organization that can
02:41
also have leadership roles.
02:43
So thank you for sharing your story with us.
02:45
So let's start with the very beginning.
02:47
We want to know what made you be,
02:49
who you are and what you do today.
02:51
Give us a little bit more about your background.
02:53
So I actually like to start the story by saying
02:57
that I was born in the very hospital where I now work
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I was born to a Dominican mother who's an amazing woman
03:05
She came here from the Dominican Republic.
03:09
never learned English.
03:11
She worked in a factory to support us and she also sold
03:15
clothes out of our one bedroom apartment to help get a little
03:19
bit more money to support us.
03:21
She raised me as a single mother,
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but you know, she really wanted me to be successful.
03:26
She knew that education was incredibly important.
03:31
And so that was always a very important goal for her,
03:34
for me to be able to attain an education and eventually become
03:38
a professional. She also instilled in me a very strong work
03:42
ethic. And so certainly by seeing how hard she worked to
03:46
provide for us, really inspired me to be a hard worker
03:51
all throughout my education.
03:54
And later on, I always knew that I wanted to be
03:56
a doctor again, in terms of role models,
03:59
my pediatrician was a Dominican woman in Washington Heights.
04:04
And I thought what she did was interesting.
04:07
And I wanted to ask you were like,
04:08
wow, look at my doctor.
04:11
Yeah, she looked like us.
04:13
She was in the community.
04:15
She spoke Spanish just like us.
04:19
I wanted to be just like her and there was no reason
04:21
for me to question whether or not I could become like her
04:25
And so I wanted to be a doctor.
04:27
I've also been a gynecologist my entire life.
04:30
So I was the one who in the schoolyard was telling all
04:34
my friends about their periods,
04:38
like right outside the nun's house.
04:40
So that was always something that was really interesting to me.
04:43
Then a story that I think is interesting is that my mother
04:48
being the person that she is felt that it would be really
04:51
important for me and my friends to get sex ed since we
04:55
were at a Catholic school.
04:56
And so she had us meet with a health educator to give
05:01
us the proper information.
05:05
I stayed in touch with this person later on in life when
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I was a teenager looking for a summer job,
05:10
she helped me get a job at the family planning clinic at
05:14
New York Presbyterian as a teenager.
05:17
And then eventually I became the medical director of that clinic.
05:20
And so there have been all these steps along the way that
05:24
have led me to become the type of doctor that I am
05:27
today. And you know,
05:29
I think that what was really important as well was the type
05:34
of educational opportunities that I had.
05:37
my mother was very committed to me getting a good education.
05:42
So she put me in a Catholic school which,
05:44
you know, was expensive for someone with her salary and she
05:48
was doing everything possible so that she could get the money to
05:51
pay for a private education because she valued education so much.
05:56
I could have gone to the public school down down the street
05:59
but she really wanted me to get the best educational opportunities
06:03
now you can certainly find great public schools.
06:06
but back then it was really hard.
06:09
the public schools in our communities were just really not great places
06:14
And so she really wanted me to get the best that
06:16
I could get given our circumstances.
06:18
However, because of my mother,
06:20
I got kicked out of Catholic school because of your mother.
06:24
She's been an activist her entire life.
06:27
She started out in the Dominican Republic where she risked her life
06:31
protesting Trujillo. She came here and she's continued to be an
06:34
activist. She always felt that it was important to try to
06:38
make the lives of the people around her better.
06:40
And so she is at every protest,
06:42
she's signing up for every community event and she felt that the
06:47
priests weren't doing enough for the community.
06:50
And so she and some parents started picketing in front of the
06:53
rectory. All the kids got kicked out of Catholic school.
06:58
And so I had no place to go because of my mother's
07:04
network and relationships. She connected me to someone who helped orient
07:11
us to private school.
07:13
And so she helped to mentor me,
07:16
help me apply. And I ended up going to a prestigious
07:19
private school with full financial aid,
07:22
which was Fieldston in Riverdale,
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that's where my kids.
07:31
That's an amazing school for those that don't live in New York
07:33
It's like it's an amazing school that has outdoor space.
07:38
not a big institution.
07:39
It's a beautiful school.
07:41
I paid zero to go there because I was so poor that
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you know, we couldn't afford anything.
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You have a mentor or your mom mentored.
07:52
My mother connected me with someone who,
07:55
you know how these things work.
07:56
She was the wife of someone who was the principal at one
08:01
of the schools. And so they helped me apply.
08:04
I got in and then was able to go.
08:06
This person was Latina or no,
08:09
no. Yeah, allies for sure.
08:12
Allies are so important.
08:15
I ended up going to Harvard for college.
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I did not love being outside of New York.
08:23
So I really wanted to come back to New York City for
08:26
medical school and certainly wanted to come back to my community.
08:30
So then went to Columbia for medical.
08:31
Yeah. But, but that's a little bit too fast for
08:34
this incredible story. Before we continue.
08:36
Can we just recognize today we're shooting it in on Mother's Day
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and your mom? I mean,
08:43
she did get you kicked out of school,
08:44
but that ended up being for your benefit,
08:47
right? Because you ended up going to a better school.
08:49
But Anna's mom, you're a rock star.
08:52
Congratulations. Yes. And to all mothers that we have heard
08:56
from all our, all our guests have a rooted connection with
09:01
their moms 100% that believe that education is the key.
09:06
Now, I think that we before we go too,
09:09
too far. I never shared with you.
09:11
But I was also in a Catholic school that my mother and
09:15
my grandmother used to go and I was also kicked out of
09:20
which led me to the bigger opportunities in life.
09:22
My father said you're kicked out you misbehaved because you kicked the
09:26
nun. Now I'm gonna send you to the middle of
09:29
nowhere. And he sent me to Achon Kansas for a year
09:32
where I learned English.
09:34
I had no words in English.
09:35
I didn't know a word of English and I learned English by
09:38
literally being just like plonked in the middle of the year that
09:41
basically opened my appetite to going and discover the world.
09:46
I was like, if there is Kansas,
09:47
there is more. So the takeaway of this conversation is get
09:51
out of your, of your Catholic.
09:55
Ok. We're not going to give you advice.
09:56
But wait, so you by the network of your mom managed
10:01
to get into a school.
10:03
You learned that there was something like financial aid where you could
10:06
access something even if you didn't have the financial means.
10:10
And so having you being such a role model and such an
10:14
incredible leader as a doctor should be an inspiration for everyone to
10:20
know that these tools do help a lot of people.
10:23
But then you just like went like,
10:24
yeah, yeah. And then I went to Harvard and then
10:26
like Colombia was, how did that happen from,
10:28
you know, like a single mother kid to being an opportunity
10:32
in Phils Stone and then going to Harvard and now being a
10:34
doctor, how did all that happen and particularly coming with no
10:39
means and no resources.
10:41
So again, back to my mother,
10:43
she doesn't really believe in no she believes in like,
10:49
OK, you want to get that,
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let's figure out how to get it.
10:52
And so I never doubted that I could go on to a
10:56
good school. You know,
10:57
I think that this is a very important message that I want
11:00
to get across for sure,
11:02
hard work is, is very important.
11:04
And that's the baseline that you have to work really hard.
11:08
And I worked really hard.
11:09
And so in terms of how I ended up at Harvard,
11:11
I had Straight A's got an amazing score on the sats all
11:17
the while growing up in Washington Heights in the eighties,
11:19
which was a really rough place.
11:21
So like to be in that environment and still excel academically that
11:26
way, it was almost easy to get into Harvard Given,
11:32
given that right. So it's not easy,
11:34
but it was easy given that background.
11:36
And again, because of my limited financial means,
11:40
I had great financial aid at Harvard And now that financial aid
11:44
is even better. So below a certain income level,
11:48
kids don't have to pay at all.
11:50
And so things have really gotten even better.
11:53
I graduated with very little debt from undergraduate because I was given
11:58
all that support. And so I think that I get,
12:02
I get asked that a lot by kids that I mentor sometimes
12:06
you know, oh is a medical school really expensive?
12:09
You know, how do you afford all of that?
12:11
And I'm just like there are a lot of resources for really
12:14
poor people. So if you're really smart and really poor,
12:17
there are a lot of resources,
12:19
finances should never be the reason to not try to achieve your
12:23
academic dreams. Sometimes people just need a role model and to
12:28
be able to take away the cloud and start dreaming big and
12:33
say because there are resources out there,
12:35
they know when you work hard and you're smart and you have
12:37
a role model and Google because every time somebody asks me or
12:40
even the other day that you and I,
12:42
I think were giving the talk at NASA and people started asking
12:45
us where can we get access to these scholars?
12:48
Literally just go to Google and type scholarships for Latino students like
12:54
any keywords that to present you and there's all the resources are
12:58
there available and you just follow your dreams and I didn't have
13:02
Google, right? So like,
13:05
but I had a scholarship from mcdonald's.
13:08
There's a Latino scholarship from mcdonald's.
13:11
I had there's a Hispanic Latino scholarship as well.
13:15
So outside of financial aid from the universities,
13:18
there are a lot of scholarships as well,
13:20
local scholarships, national scholarships that can really help.
13:24
OK, so you were able to know because of your Fieldstone
13:28
experience that you could dream big and that you were going
13:31
to be supported. I also had great teachers who really inspired
13:36
me. I loved learning and they saw that I loved learning
13:41
And so they really supported me.
13:44
my advisor who was my biology teacher,
13:47
she was my big champion,
13:49
who was the one who wrote me my letter of recommendation,
13:52
the one who I could go to with any questions.
13:54
And so that's also really important finding an adult that can help
13:57
mentor, you support you advocate for you.
14:00
Did you have role models or teachers in medical school or
14:04
even in Harvard that were Latinos or Latinas in college?
14:08
No, in medical school also know there was one who I
14:18
was, she was somewhat of a mentor,
14:21
but she was in a different field from the one that I
14:23
was going into. So yes,
14:25
there's so few of us,
14:26
right? So it's really hard to find Latina Latino mentors
14:32
in the Ivy League in the college level,
14:35
in the graduate school level.
14:36
Unfortunately, but you back to back to allies like that's,
14:40
you know, they're also allies.
14:41
So that's also important.
14:42
I'm gonna ask a question that typically Cynthia would ask.
14:45
But so coming from a poor background,
14:49
getting to feel soon full of more wealthy people.
14:54
How is that navigation?
14:55
How is that adaptation and what would you say to people that
14:58
are getting that opportunity to get financial aid but like it
15:02
like it's a clash or a cultural experience.
15:05
How do you get ready for that and get the others ready
15:08
for that? It was really,
15:10
really hard. You know,
15:14
I think today thinking about being Latina,
15:19
it was the first time that I realized that I was Latina
15:23
right? Because everyone around me was Latina before.
15:25
And so it wasn't something novel or different.
15:28
And then I get to this school where there are very few
15:31
other Latinas because it was the first time that I realized how
15:34
different I was from,
15:37
not just the rest of the United States,
15:39
but people with privilege,
15:41
you know, people who had parents who were professionals people who
15:46
had wealth. And so it was very hard to be different
15:52
I had gone from being pretty popular and outgoing in my Catholic
15:57
school to then being completely unseen and made fun of,
16:03
like, I was made fun of because I had a heavy
16:05
accent. I was made fun of because of where I lived
16:11
I would wear a sweater that was like,
16:14
you know, not the same brand that was popular.
16:18
And so that I would be made fun of.
16:20
And that's really hard for a girl in middle school,
16:23
which is where I started.
16:24
And so emotionally, it was very,
16:27
very difficult back to Latina mothers.
16:31
deal with it. You know,
16:33
you're getting a good education but,
16:35
you know, it's not as easy as just deal with it
16:38
because I do think that a lot of that experience really impacted
16:43
my confidence and, you know,
16:45
I don't know whether or not sacrificing your feeling of self worth
16:50
and sacrificing your confidence is fully worth it.
16:54
That said, I do think that things are better now in
16:59
that there is a recognition that this is hard.
17:02
And so I do think that schools do more to try to
17:05
be more inclusive. And I also have always believed in the
17:10
power of affinity groups.
17:12
So finding commonalities with others.
17:16
And so I was a part of the minority student organization at
17:20
Fieldston when I went to Harvard,
17:22
I helped found the Dominican Association.
17:26
When I went to medical school,
17:28
I was in the Black and Latino Organization.
17:30
And so I think finding community,
17:32
finding people that have maybe not the exact same experience,
17:36
but like similar experiences is important because that helps,
17:41
you know, helps you heal emotionally.
17:45
I, again, I am finding a lot of commonality when
17:49
I was just sharing with Cynthia that my mother stopped being
17:52
an economist and decided to go into acting when she was 45
17:56
And I was like in primary school and I was kicked
17:59
out of my Catholic school.
18:01
I went to the US and came back to the school
18:03
of my dreams and my mother was all of a sudden poor
18:08
because she was like risking and she didn't have salaries and she
18:11
was like in shows and so on,
18:13
but she didn't have that.
18:14
And so I was like with my father who was very wealthy
18:17
and my mother who was very poor and she had like ugly
18:19
car and an ugly neighborhood and,
18:21
and that, and I was,
18:22
I was in a school that was very wealthy.
18:25
And for me, they people made fun of me where I
18:28
lived. I ne never wanted to take kids to my place
18:32
and study or anything like that.
18:33
I asked my mom to pick me up two blocks away so
18:36
that I wouldn't be laughed at but they were like,
18:37
ha ha ha, that car is yours.
18:39
And I think that in retrospect having a playbook giving us to
18:44
the next gym because there's a lot of Latinos that are still
18:46
gonna be benefiting from the financial aid.
18:49
I would have liked to know on that time that there's a
18:54
bigger cause that, you know,
18:55
like in a way finding your group of people that are also
18:59
suffering from not being,
19:01
you know, like on the same level of privilege that being
19:05
being also clear on the longer run,
19:07
like you're gonna, you're gonna get bruises here,
19:10
but this is worth because it's gonna go like you just go
19:13
without knowing. I just don't know that we have a manual
19:17
of navigating, getting into a completely different social level and
19:22
economic level, which is what we're doing at Latinos all the
19:26
And so it is really important to be able to un unleash
19:30
these pieces and say like,
19:31
OK, if you're a mother and your kid is gonna get
19:33
into an an opportunity,
19:35
prepare her have the talk.
19:39
don't be like my mother who was like,
19:42
I don't understand what the problem is.
19:43
You're getting this great,
19:44
great education at a great school,
19:46
like understand that your emotional and mental well being is also really
19:50
important. And so even talking about it,
19:53
even acknowledging it and saying what you said,
19:56
yes, this is temporarily bad,
19:58
but things are going to be better and you will find your
20:00
people and you will eventually benefit from having gone through this.
20:05
But you know, to a 13 year old girl or,
20:08
you know, that's really hard to understand.
20:11
And so I'm not sure what the right answer is,
20:15
but yes, it's a important to acknowledge it and it's important
20:18
to, to try to address it the best way we can
20:21
I feel like there was a time when there was this
20:23
cartoon of like the nerd kid in school and the popular kid
20:28
in school and it was something along the lines of like this
20:31
popular kid is gonna end up working for the nerd one,
20:34
like it's gonna be Bill Gates and,
20:36
and I feel like we have to have the same because I
20:39
imagine that some of those people that made fun of your sweater
20:43
would love to get an appointment with you now that you're so
20:46
important and that's a great image,
20:50
right? Like you will be in a position where this will
20:53
pass, this will pass just like close your eyes,
20:57
try to like buffer yourself as much as you can try to
20:59
be as, as accompanied in the process that you can.
21:03
But this will pass and you'll also benefit because it really does
21:07
teach you grit and resilience.
21:11
You know, if you can make it through all of that
21:13
you can handle a lot of things.
21:15
And so it certainly is also a life skill that you get
21:17
from navigating all these spaces.
21:19
And yeah, we heard from another guest that getting into Harvard
21:24
like that, like shock in a way of a high school
21:27
like privileged high school with no means was easier in a
21:30
way of like, there were more people that were like her
21:35
and probably that was,
21:36
you know, like that is not like,
21:37
how was your experience?
21:39
I got to Harvard and it was amazing.
21:42
I had all these friends,
21:45
people who were like me who'd gone through the same experience
21:50
it was amazing, you know,
21:51
I liked it a little too much.
21:53
I think I probably socialized a little too much in college more
21:57
I should have been in the library more than I was socializing
22:00
But it was just like,
22:01
so amazing finally find my people and not have to explain
22:08
myself and like, you know,
22:10
and it wasn't just that all my friends were Dominicans from New
22:14
at all. It was just like people had had similar experiences
22:17
in their spaces and it was just that like that similar experience
22:21
helped bring us together.
22:23
Now, after Harvard you decided you wanted to be a doctor
22:29
I think a lot of us go into whatever field we end
22:32
up going to not really knowing what the day to day is
22:35
But I wanted to be a doctor.
22:38
despite a little too much socializing in college,
22:42
I was able to get in to medical school and was very
22:45
happy to be able to go back to my community.
22:48
So I went to Columbia Medical School,
22:50
which is literally two blocks from where my mother lives.
22:53
Did you go back to live with your mom?
22:55
Eventually? So the first two years I lived off campus and
22:59
wait a minute, why am I spending extra money when my
23:02
mother is right there and she can cook for me while I'm
23:04
in medical school. And so I went back home for the
23:06
last two years. And why,
23:09
why do you think they are like not enough Latino doctors?
23:14
The numbers in the health care system are appalling when it
23:19
comes to senior positions,
23:20
when it comes to doctors,
23:22
you're great at your health care assistant,
23:24
nurse even, but not registered nurse.
23:26
And then you start getting into management of health care or
23:30
doctors and the numbers are really less than 5% and particularly Latinas
23:35
is even lower. I mean,
23:36
I assume it's really,
23:37
really hard, but how do we break that?
23:39
So that is part of what I'm trying to do with some
23:43
of the spaces that I'm in.
23:46
you know, certainly doing the community health for,
23:51
for my department and my hospital doing the diversity,
23:55
equity and inclusion work for my department.
23:58
It is really important for us to have a diverse health care
24:01
workforce. We know that for example,
24:05
Latinos have better outcomes if they have health care providers who
24:10
speak the same language or have a similar background.
24:14
We also know that Latinos are more likely to work in spaces
24:17
where there are more Latinos like the inner city or rural areas
24:22
And so it is very important to have Latino doctors.
24:25
You talked about percentages.
24:27
So 19% of the United States is Latino and that number is
24:32
growing by the minute,
24:33
but only 6% of the doctors are Latinos.
24:38
2% are Latinas and we need female physicians because female female physicians
24:45
tend to spend a little bit more time with patients.
24:47
They tend to be more patient centered in their care.
24:50
And then in an area like mine gynecology,
24:52
a lot of women are seeking female doctors.
24:55
And so that number also really needs to increase,
24:57
particularly because the Latinas are the factory of the babies of this
25:01
country. We're the most common interracial marriage.
25:05
go. And then you know,
25:07
you talked about medical schools and faculty and academic medical faculty.
25:12
Only 3% are Latinos.
25:14
And the academic medical system is where people are getting the highest
25:18
level of care and where we're training the future generations.
25:21
And so you have to have diversity there and So that is
25:25
certainly something that I'm working to try to change.
25:29
What is the reason for it?
25:31
You know, I do think that it is really hard to
25:33
be a doctor. You know,
25:34
there are a lot of other careers where you don't need to
25:37
go to school for that long.
25:38
You don't need four years of college,
25:41
four years of medical school,
25:44
depending on the specialty.
25:46
OBGYN is four years of residency and then a lot of people
25:49
do a fellowship to get even more specialized.
25:52
And that can be like 2 to 3 years.
25:55
So you're essentially giving up a decade of your life to training
25:59
more to training. And yes,
26:02
being a doctor is amazing and it's a very important work,
26:07
but it is a really long road.
26:08
And so if you're a teenager thinking about what I wanted to
26:13
like, where am I going to be able to?
26:15
And that's the thing too.
26:16
A lot of Latinos don't have generational wealth.
26:19
So we can't afford to sit back and go to school forever
26:22
We need to get out and start making money to help
26:24
support our families sometimes.
26:25
But you're saying that there's financial aid enough so that you could
26:28
try to do it for the schooling.
26:31
But you're not generating when you're thinking about different careers,
26:34
right? So if you're thinking about an alternative career where you
26:37
could start making an income earlier on,
26:40
you know, it's a sacrifice to pursue healthcare.
26:43
So I think that's another reason.
26:45
And then I do think that there are serious pipeline issues.
26:49
Right. And so what's the educational system like in preschool?
26:53
Elementary school, middle school,
26:55
by the time you get to high school,
26:56
it's probably too late.
26:58
You need to have been a good student and have exposure and
27:02
resources and access to schools and great schools in order to be
27:07
able to get to that next level.
27:08
So I think all of these things come together to make it
27:13
make it difficult and to have the numbers that we.
27:15
So it's long, it's expensive,
27:17
it's hard, but it's fourth,
27:20
it's worth it if that's your dream for sure.
27:23
And there are certainly ways to,
27:25
you know, and when I talk to people who are considering
27:27
a career in medicine,
27:28
like some of the things that I say is to be flexible
27:31
right? So don't just say like I will only live
27:34
in Los Angeles and work in like you have to be flexible
27:37
with medicine, you have to like accept that you may go
27:40
to medical school in Kansas and then you may do your residency
27:43
in Iowa. How does the residency work?
27:46
I think that you have to go to a place that has
27:49
that doesn't have that many doctors or how do they assign
27:51
the no, you have to apply for it.
27:53
So every step of the way is super competitive.
27:56
I think in the media,
27:57
we hear about how competitive it is to get into medical,
28:00
into colleges. Right.
28:01
So that's the first barrier.
28:02
Then medical schools super competitive,
28:04
then residencies are super competitive.
28:06
You have to apply and so you have to do things like
28:09
get good grades, do research,
28:11
extracurriculars, letters of recommendation for every step of the way.
28:16
it's really hard and at what point it,
28:20
I don't know that we're gonna be able to solve the medical
28:22
system here. I think it's a really hard one,
28:24
but I wanna know about your experience.
28:26
When did you have kids?
28:28
Where were you along the way?
28:29
And how did you manage to be a mom and like,
28:34
continue advancing your career?
28:36
I think that none of us are doing everything perfectly all the
28:41
time. Right. And so I think that that's the first
28:43
thing to acknowledge that you can't be a perfect mom and a
28:47
perfect employee 100% of the time.
28:51
And so at least from a wife and a friend and
28:53
a daughter and this is a message for our husbands,
28:58
a public service announcement.
29:01
But I will say that at least what I chose to do
29:05
I have two daughters and they're two years apart.
29:08
I had a job that was more flexible so that it was
29:14
but it was predictable hours.
29:16
And then when I had my second daughter,
29:20
So I was part time for two years after,
29:22
after the birth of my daughter.
29:24
But I was very fortunate that,
29:26
you know, at that time,
29:27
my husband could support us financially so that we had that flexibility
29:31
not everyone had that flexibility to go part time.
29:34
So I went part time for two years and then came back
29:37
full force. And so by then,
29:39
they were a little bit older,
29:40
their lives were more you know,
29:44
like scheduled and so then I could pursue my career advancement more
29:50
Were you afraid that when you went part time,
29:53
your career was going to slow down again?
29:56
That's another good thing about medicine.
29:58
That's not always true in other fields.
30:00
But with medicine, you can kind of,
30:02
you know, shrink things down a little bit and then
30:05
ramp it up. It's not from what I've heard in other
30:08
careers. It's not as simple.
30:10
if you're on the partnership track for a law firm,
30:12
you can't really stop,
30:14
you have to keep going.
30:15
Otherwise you lose that momentum.
30:22
that is a really great thing about medicine for women that even
30:26
though it's really hard and it takes all this work to get
30:28
there. When you get there,
30:30
there is flexibility for you to do different things because you see
30:33
a lot of women that take a step back and then they
30:35
want to come back and they just can't.
30:38
So before going into explaining a little bit more of what you
30:40
do on your job and you know,
30:42
like, how do you find your sphere?
30:45
I wanna ask you a lot of our guests are saying
30:48
like, let's do an MB A encouraging people to do an
30:52
MB A because it will return the investment,
30:56
Does it pay off to be a doctor?
30:59
I mean, that's the question,
31:00
right? Like how does one define success?
31:02
How does one define having it pay off?
31:06
it's, it's honestly not as financially lucrative as other careers,
31:13
especially with insurance reimbursements,
31:17
working in an academic medical center.
31:19
There's there, it's not,
31:21
you know, it's not the most financial lucrative career path.
31:25
There are certain areas and specialties where you can make a lot
31:29
of money, but the mythology and doing Botox for everybody,
31:33
but things like primary care,
31:34
which is so important,
31:36
does not pay well at all.
31:41
Maybe not financially but it's worth it in so many other ways
31:45
And so the finance part of it is something where it
31:48
is something that we have to be honest about.
31:50
are you, are you going to be in a,
31:53
in a, you have a husband,
31:58
what are your, what is your financial situation.
32:01
Do you have other ways to,
32:03
to support the family?
32:04
Because, yeah, there are certain things where it's not going
32:07
to be as financially lucrative.
32:11
But I will say back to my flexibility,
32:14
you can go and live somewhere else,
32:16
maybe not New York City and make more money.
32:18
So there is a way for you if you're flexible to find
32:21
a way to have medicine,
32:22
be more of a lucrative career.
32:25
Do you regret becoming a doctor?
32:28
No, I really like what I do and I've liked all
32:32
the parts of my career that have allowed me to have that
32:37
flexibility that have allowed me to do what I like doing,
32:43
but also be able to be there for my kids and things
32:46
like that. So I don't regret it.
32:47
I do think that things could be done better.
32:50
What would you have done differently?
32:52
I don't mean like things could be done better by me.
32:56
I mean, things could be done better in the system,
33:00
in the system. I do think that training doesn't have to
33:05
be that long, that difficult arduous.
33:11
So I do think that there are ways to have it
33:13
be more humane. I do think that something that people
33:18
are realizing is how expensive medical school is.
33:20
So that's another thing that could be different.
33:24
And then the way that the health care system currently is,
33:27
I feel that a lot of physicians have lost their voice in
33:32
terms of being able to speak up for their patients and how
33:37
health care is is given.
33:43
I do think that our health care system does need to change
33:47
I think that we all agree on that.
33:48
Tell us a little bit more about your role.
33:50
So you're both medical but also administrative responsibilities.
33:55
Explain a bit more and,
33:57
and like that management,
34:00
when you think of a doctor,
34:01
you think of a doctor seeing patients in the office and that
34:04
is a very the most important part,
34:06
but it's only about half of what I do,
34:08
the other half is administrative things and management things.
34:13
And so the first thing that I did was become
34:18
the medical director of the Family Planning Practice.
34:21
So it's a practice where we provide sexual and reproductive health care
34:25
to women who are uninsured or underinsured.
34:28
So it's a really great service that we provide to the community
34:32
And I help as the medical director,
34:35
I help manage. you know,
34:37
all the, all the work that we do there,
34:39
the way that we're providing care.
34:41
And then more recently,
34:43
I have taken on new roles.
34:46
So now I am Director of Community Women's Health and co-director of
34:50
our department's Office of Diversity Equity and Inclusion.
34:53
And this came about,
34:55
unfortunately, because of 2020 all the things that happened in 2020
35:00
we had COVID and our neighborhood Washington Heights was the epicenter of
35:06
the epicenter. And we already knew that there are social determinants
35:12
of health that lead to poorer outcomes.
35:15
But it became so stark in 2020.
35:18
Like you die, if you have these social determinants of health
35:22
if you live in a multigenerational home,
35:24
if you're an essential worker,
35:25
if you don't have a primary care doctor,
35:27
you will die. You know,
35:28
like that became so stark and people really felt that they needed
35:34
to do something about it.
35:35
And so this role came about so that we could look at
35:38
ways to improve the health outcomes of the women in our community
35:42
So addressing social determinants of health,
35:44
engaging with other community health care providers,
35:48
having a better relationship with our community based organizations.
35:54
and actually very importantly to me education,
35:57
so I think education is power and so this role allows me
36:02
to lend my voice to teaching around different health issues.
36:09
You know, at first it was around COVID,
36:11
but now I will give talks about different issues such as
36:17
contraception or routine GYN care.
36:22
And so these are all the things that make up community,
36:24
women's health then in terms of diversity,
36:27
equity and inclusion, working towards the things that we talked about
36:30
increasing the diversity of our workforce in our departments,
36:35
making not just the numbers but making sure that people feel like
36:38
they're included and they belong.
36:40
And you also still working to help improve the outcomes for our
36:44
patients. Because in Washington Heights,
36:47
we talked about 19% of the United States being Latino in Washington
36:53
And so improving health outcomes for Latinas is very,
37:01
very important and urgent.
37:02
And so that I do that in terms of those two
37:05
areas. And so it's been really great.
37:07
It's unfortunate that because of the things that happened in 2020 between
37:11
COVID and the health disparities that it unmasked.
37:17
the racial reckoning that happened in 2020 all these things came together
37:22
to allow me and those that I work with to try
37:27
to have a wider impact on the patients that we care for
37:31
And then, so this means that you now work 100
37:34
and 50% or you or 250%.
37:38
So you added these responsibilities to your day job of being a
37:40
doctor or your, your role changed.
37:44
So you could make space,
37:45
my role changed. So that I could have more space
37:47
for, for these these areas.
37:50
What, what do you think the organization sees in you that
37:55
you were able to kind of like advance your career and have
37:59
a role that is different than the role that most people have
38:02
that you have a leadership position.
38:05
I think this goes back to how I think about the idea
38:08
of being Latina. you know,
38:11
as a Latina, it wasn't always something that I was super
38:16
excited or proud about because I was in these predominantly white spaces
38:22
if our number is 2% there aren't people that look like me
38:27
that come from my background.
38:29
And so there's a little bit of imposter syndrome that comes along
38:33
with it. And certainly it's a challenge and a barrier to
38:37
achieving success and advancement.
38:39
However, all of a sudden being Latina from Washington Heights is
38:44
amazing because given everything that's happened recently,
38:49
my voice is incredibly important.
38:51
I understand the community,
38:53
I can explain the community.
38:54
I'm a part of the community.
38:56
I am a trusted messenger.
38:59
I always knew that my voice was important,
39:02
but now it like literally is because I have a very unique
39:06
background and life experience that can really help my institution achieve
39:11
the goals that are very important.
39:14
So you're saying that there was an enabling environment that you didn't
39:18
feel before so that your voice was better heard?
39:23
honestly, you look around and what do the leaders look like
39:27
they don't look like me.
39:31
Is it because I'm not supposed to be a leader?
39:33
What does it take is that ever going to be an option
39:36
But now like diversity hopefully will continue to be valued.
39:42
And so that was really the the opportunity,
39:45
but here's where the Magic Taco happens when you have an understanding
39:49
of your superpower as who you are.
39:52
And we would like to talk to you about your superpower.
39:54
What made you grow in these 20 years?
39:58
and, and get along in your promotion in the,
40:01
in the latter. But the other one is how do we
40:04
create those enabling environments or inclusive environments or so that we can
40:10
match it? So it becomes the,
40:12
the piece where we can advance.
40:15
And I think that things like our podcast and the organizations that
40:19
we work with and the effort that we have create those enabling
40:22
environments. So that all of a sudden what you said,
40:26
You've been working for the same day and I've been Latina for
40:28
a long time and we've been on the fight for a long
40:31
time. So those enabling environments where there's every time more voices
40:36
creating those environments allow f for a microphone to emerge so that
40:40
people can hear you.
40:41
But you also have to be aware of your superpowers and be
40:44
using them and be like eyes wide open as what you wanted
40:48
to have as a 13 year old kid.
40:50
Like, OK, this is gonna take a long time but
40:52
I'm gonna go for it.
40:53
So what are those superpowers for you that allowed you to as
40:58
like as a Latina that you are as a super role model
41:01
that you are as a doctor for a community to get to
41:05
where you are, you know,
41:06
so yes, being Latina is a superpower and what are some
41:10
of the things that come along with that?
41:13
For sure, being a hard worker,
41:14
right? So we talk back to the work ethic and as
41:18
as a largely immigrant community by default,
41:24
we're hard workers. And so being a hard worker is the
41:27
baseline. And so that's a superpower,
41:29
right? Like I know that I need to work really hard
41:32
Another quality of being Latina is that we always help those
41:37
around us. And I learned that from my mother,
41:42
my mother would host educational workshops in our living room for the
41:48
neighbors in the building who were pregnant just because,
41:53
you know, for no reason other than all these women are
41:56
pregnant, let me find someone who can talk to them.
41:59
And so like, you know,
42:03
the things that happened in my house,
42:04
we had all kinds of crazy talks that happened in my living
42:09
room. But so I saw that growing up and I
42:12
knew that you have to help leave this world a better place
42:17
And so you have to help those around you.
42:20
It's not just about and certainly you do that.
42:22
Same patients, every patient that I see.
42:24
Hopefully I'm trying to help.
42:25
So it's a word that you're describing is caring,
42:28
caring and yeah, wanting to help those around me.
42:32
And so I think that that's another superpower and then like,
42:37
really loving my background.
42:40
I love being Latina,
42:42
I love being Dominican.
42:43
I love going to the Dominican Republic.
42:46
I love our commitment to family and how amazing is that you
42:54
And so I'm so grateful that that is part of my
42:56
background. You know,
42:58
I feel sad sometimes that I feel like I haven't given that
43:00
as much to my Children just because they're so busy with sports
43:04
and school and all of that.
43:05
But that is for sure,
43:07
superpower that has really helped ground me,
43:09
you know, in times of difficulty,
43:15
And so that is another superpower to have this whole other
43:18
culture that is, that is like my home and my background
43:25
but just as like I say on the on the
43:27
Children and because we're like volleyball,
43:29
mothers, our kids play volleyball together.
43:32
So that's how I I got to know Anna because,
43:36
you know, like obviously my daughter going every weekend to different
43:40
places for the last couple of years and meeting with them.
43:43
The Latina moms with the Latino kids are like,
43:46
you know, like are are more,
43:47
are more not, not only but like are are more you
43:51
just find that entry point which is like already you get to
43:55
level one just by being right?
43:57
Like, oh you're Latina.
43:59
No, no, we can be friendlier than when you get
44:03
And I can say that that is something that I feel in
44:06
both our kids. I think that both I would say
44:09
Sophia and Tamara feel Latinas do not have to hide and I
44:14
would say would take it up even more and we will see
44:18
how they do in college.
44:19
But I think that even if you're not pushing it,
44:22
it is ingrained and it's not something that you're pushing down for
44:26
sure, an assimilation or else,
44:28
although my mother would come and bring me articles all the time
44:31
about how important it is to be bilingual because she didn't think
44:34
I was teaching my kids Spanish well enough.
44:37
And I'm like, I know that it's important.
44:40
It's just really hard.
44:41
So yes, I'm still hopeful that they will become fully bilingual
44:46
at some point. But yeah,
44:46
it's one of those 16 and 18,
44:49
they speak enough. I think you just have to throw them
44:51
in a Latin American country for a while on their own and
44:54
they'll be fine. I buy them a couple of three year
44:57
old. So I'm asking for a,
45:01
I imagine you're the only woman that looks like you in the
45:04
leadership rooms at Colombia.
45:07
Is that, are you the only Latina woman?
45:09
So, no. So we have come together,
45:13
right? So I want to talk about the Latino Association that
45:17
we started recently. There aren't that many Latinas in my department
45:21
but there's Latinas in the pediatrics department or in the internal
45:24
medicine department. And so we've come together because of this association
45:29
working towards these goals,
45:31
increasing their numbers, increasing community,
45:34
helping to mentor and grow the pipeline.
45:38
And so it's been great because we're like,
45:42
oh, I didn't know that there were these many other Latinos
45:44
in other places. And so it's been a vehicle for us
45:47
to come together. So it feels less alone.
45:50
The same that you wanted in Filton.
45:53
He's building those same principles of,
45:56
well, how do you get your crowd not to be alone
45:58
and in the entire ecosystem that you have gone through,
46:03
like, have you felt one that you were Latini,
46:08
that was something that was pushing you down,
46:10
that was like a cone to your career where you had to
46:13
dial down. You talked about the pros,
46:17
you talked about the superpower,
46:19
but certainly we want to also address how it's really also
46:24
potentially a Yeah, I mean,
46:26
you know, I don't know how to measure that,
46:28
but I do think that because leaders are typically you know
46:37
That's usually who the leaders are.
46:39
You don't automatically think of someone like myself as a leader or
46:44
someone who can be powerful and why not?
46:48
Because implicit bias, we're all human,
46:51
we all have stereotypes.
46:53
You have to be intentional to get around that.
46:56
You have to stop yourself and be like,
46:58
wait, no, that doesn't make sense.
47:00
And most people don't do that.
47:02
Most people just go with their implicit bias,
47:07
meaning people. But you know that that's a Latina is not
47:12
the first person that you automatically think of for helping to solve
47:16
a problem or pushing something forward because that's traditionally not who's in
47:22
those spaces. I've been fortunate that I do have sponsors the
47:27
chair of my department,
47:29
the dean of our medical school,
47:31
different leaders have made it a point to try to promote,
47:39
develop women of color.
47:43
I think that's been talking about being in the right place at
47:48
the right time. That's been helpful.
47:49
But I think that you have to be intentional about it and
47:53
not everyone's intentional. So you don't feel like you've ever had
47:56
to try not to look or sound Latina in your career.
48:00
I do think, I do think that you don't bring your
48:06
but I didn't for a long time.
48:09
It just was so different that there was no reason to
48:12
bring my whole self and,
48:14
you know, going back to like,
48:17
it's helpful to be a Latina with my background that wasn't something
48:22
that was useful to me in,
48:26
in, in, in a work space.
48:33
yeah, I do think that we sometimes don't bring our whole
48:36
selves to work And that's awful because we want to bring our
48:39
whole selves to work because that's why diversity is so great because
48:42
you see different perspectives,
48:44
different approaches to things.
48:46
I think that as diversity increases,
48:48
people will feel more comfortable bringing their whole selves to,
48:53
I'm wondering like, what did it look like when you were
48:55
trying to not be so Latina?
48:58
Like, were you speaking differently where you're just not talking about
49:02
your background? Like what does it look like?
49:04
Anna trying to hide her Latinidad in the work in the hospital
49:10
you know, there's things like code switching with talking differently with
49:16
your friends than you do in your workspace.
49:20
And I did work really hard.
49:21
I did have a Spanish accent initially and I worked really hard
49:26
to not have a Spanish accent but you know,
49:29
not sharing my story,
49:32
talking about these things that I'm talking about now,
49:35
there would be no reason to bring that up and now it's
49:38
these stories are amazing.
49:39
Like I need to share them and they're so powerful,
49:41
not just because it's an interesting story,
49:43
but it can help others.
49:44
Like you were saying,
49:45
it can inspire others.
49:46
And there's a lot of value to sharing these stories that I
49:51
didn't necessarily have the opportunity to share before.
49:55
Thank you. So what would be the message that you would
49:58
give to a young Latina that is thinking,
50:00
like, I really would love to be a doctor,
50:03
Yeah, I think that it's important.
50:06
So if someone's young and thinking about being a doctor,
50:08
they need to get out there and talk to different people understand
50:12
the path, understand what it takes because there's a lot of
50:16
unspoken things that people don't necessarily have access to that knowledge.
50:23
what are the things that you need to be doing to make
50:25
yourself a more attractive applicant?
50:27
What types of grades do you need to have?
50:29
When do you start studying for these standardized tests?
50:32
There are a lot of people who are willing to help but
50:35
you need to connect and so just getting out there and networking
50:39
and finding resources not being afraid to ask for help.
50:43
I think that that's also something that we sometimes,
50:46
you know, like we're worried like,
50:47
oh, I already feel like I don't belong here.
50:49
And if I ask a question,
50:50
people are going to really know that I don't belong here,
50:52
but no, everyone's asking questions.
50:54
You're not expected to know everything.
50:56
And so it is totally fine to ask questions and you should
50:59
ask questions. So that's my other big message,
51:02
you know, like if you're in school,
51:04
make sure you go to all the office hours,
51:06
make sure that you're asking all the questions.
51:08
Just make sure that you're getting as much information as you
51:12
can and making yourself more attractive by doing what kind of things
51:16
Yeah. And so you know,
51:17
there is a very clear path,
51:19
not very clear, but there are clear paths to get into
51:22
medical school, for example,
51:23
right? So you need to have a certain GPA,
51:27
you need to do well on the standardized tests.
51:31
And so that's one thing.
51:32
But then do you want to do some research?
51:34
Do you want to do some community service?
51:35
Do you want to shadow doctors?
51:37
There are all these things that you should be doing along the
51:40
way in order to make yourself a good applicant and you can't
51:44
just figure that out at the end,
51:46
you should be doing that all along.
51:48
And so getting some mentorship around them.
51:52
we have a methodology called flip the script where we take one
51:56
of the cultural nuances that are very much like the superpowers that
52:00
you mentioned for, for Latinas and else that are not yet
52:03
understood in a corporate environment that are not yet understood as a
52:07
positive asset for Latinos,
52:10
for example, being having an accent is really what it
52:14
means is that you're bilingual,
52:16
that you speak several languages,
52:17
being social that you're super committed.
52:19
Is there anything in your field that you feel could be flipped
52:23
the script? Either that we change it,
52:25
run in our mindset or also change the the enabling environment so
52:29
that we could be seen as a positive?
52:31
Yeah. No, I think that one of the things that
52:33
we, we talked about just like,
52:34
you know, what it means to be a leader and like
52:37
you know, sometimes we're not seen as like the cut
52:42
like alpha, you get to the top because we're seen as
52:48
someone who maybe wants to be nice,
52:52
be nice, be in a group,
52:53
not, not, not be disruptive,
52:57
but that's something that we should flip the script on because I
53:02
we certainly want to be able to help those around us.
53:04
Like the best leaders are the ones who help those around them
53:08
And so for sure that one leading as a mother,
53:12
bringing everybody along mean that that is not a leadership style and
53:17
should be flipped and Aspin.
53:18
It was incredible having you with us.
53:21
Thank you so very much for your wisdom.
53:23
Thank you. Thank you.
53:24
This was great. We learned a lot from a different field
53:26
and I really hope that we can get more Latinas in the
53:29
medical field and more Latinas in leadership positions.
53:32
So you guys can change the system because what needs some adjustment
53:36
is clearly the system.
53:38
your advice, your wisdom and the conversation,
53:40
we're gonna be able to lead a La Latina.
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